Torque 3D Development - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
by Brett Seyler · 03/21/2009 (2:53 am) · 494 comments
Hey everyone! I know some of you saw the Gamasutra story that revealed some previously unreleased details about Torque 3D. I'm going to to try to clarify the whole picture, and fill in any gaps with this post here. Because it's GDC week, I'm already down here in SF doing some PR, talking about iTorque, and talking to some local studios about Torque and InstantAction. Needless to say, definitely keeping busy, so I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible and focus on the stuff I know you most want answered. We've got a big week ahead of us :) I'm guessing we'll get a lot more questions answered in the comments, so feel free to throw out anything I don't cover here.
When I first started blogging on our dev progress in December, I really didn't think we'd get as far as we have, as fast as we have. Torque 3D is really a huge step up from TGEA, particularly with respect to the toolset, usability, and content pipeline. I think users will react most to the effort we've put into the tools, and we'll be showing much more of that in the next few weeks. Of course, we've done some major subsystem updates as well (Web publishing, Terrain, Post processing, Particles, etc).
Licensing
I posted twice on pricing & licensing (one of which is still probably the most commented on post in GG history) and we definitely listened. These were the main takeaways from the roughly 400 comments (and numerous emails) I got since.
Quote:1. Support, especially ticketed support is in high demand. If GG can find a way to provide this, there are Torque developers willing to pay for it.
2. A low entry point to Torque is important, even if it means some restrictions in the EULA or deprecating some features.
3. Greater polish, usability, stability and overall quality are paramount attributes for a high-end Torque product.
4. A focus on tools, and particularly usability in the World Editor, is the most important area to address in Torque 3D.
So we took all that, and really put your opinions into action, both from a development standpoint, and with respect to pricing & licensing. Here is what we decided on:
1. Two versions available on the website, Basic and Professional, each with an Indie EULA.
2. Basic and Pro have a feature delta, with the Pro package being targeted at existing TGEA owners, or pro / prosumer developers and studios who might need to create custom code modifications for their game. The Basic package is targeted at new users, who want to learn the tools, and see what the engine is capable of. You will be able to us Basic to create a game, even though we expect it to ship as a binary only. When working on a larger team, artists and designers often don't need access to the source code, and in these cases, the Basic package will probably be a better fit, given that team members can share compiled binaries with one another.
3. For those looking for a custom EULA, perhaps for an entire studio or for a single project that doesn't qualify for our "Indie" license, we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com. I should note that we probably won't touch any requests to this address that aren't from developers serious about a more expansive license and with the means and ability to pay for it. For example, our typical Studio licenses start @ $6k for a small team, and go up from there.
Features
The Professional version of Torque 3D will include everything we've talked about thus far, and a lot of what still hasn't been revealed. For example, we're planning to include updates to Physics, new Terrain, a Decal Editor, a Datablock Editor, River / Road / Path tools, and a Material editor in the final release.
The Basic version will not include Web Publishing, Advanced Lighting, or the River & Road Tools, but everything else is in there. It will also be binary only. Again, this version is probably not a good fit for most of you who currently own TGEA. We're offering the big discount during the pre-order period only on Pro, and TGEA owners will not be able to apply any of their TGEA license fee to Torque 3D Basic. Only to Professional.
We've been talking about Genre Kits and Add-ons a bit as well. There's some really good stuff coming there, but we don't have any pricing to announce with that yet. There's the Luma Racing Kit (based on their game "Rev" published on InstantAction, and including some of those production assets). There's a much updated FPS Starter Kit with work from Max Gaming and Apparatus. There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people. There's also Gerhard's expansion (unnamed at present) which will probably include a lot of custom assets and functionality on top of what you've already seen.
The takeaway w/ Genre Kits and most of these Add-ons is that they will likely be Pro-only.
Pricing
So, let's break this down just a bit more clearly.
What will Torque 3D cost me?
If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
If you own any other Torque products, you can still purchase TGEA and get the same discount described above for a limited time. The pre-order discount will expire when we release release the final Torque 3D build (expecting this to be in May at the moment). The first beta will be delivered to Torque 3D owners in April.
There is no pre-order available for Torque 3D Basic, and there is no discount on Basic for existing TGEA owners.
Why Pre-order?
Access to the Torque 3D Closed Beta -- First delivery in April An exclusive Torque 3D T-Shirt Torque 3D private forum access on GarageGames.com Up to $495 off the full version priceAs I mentioned before, I'm going to keep posting blogs all the way up to our release, and probably for a while thereafter. We've still got a lot to show.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #15.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#142
@Brett: any chance of one of those unknown 3rd party developers getting a further discount?
Suppose someone us, them, me, etc. were to create a new editor or "modding tools" for their game, would that go against the no release of the "new" Tools clause in the license? Or what if we reverted changes back to use the old editor(s) and distributed those? Or is that a NO Editors! in general without further discussion with GG kind of thing?
03/22/2009 (4:47 am)
Whoa! A lot reading to catch up on this almost runaway blog.Quote:Has anyone resolved the DIF art question.
Quote:And will the current 1.0.5.1 Constructor be compatible with the new t3d setups?A little birdy pointed out that the buildings that were shown in the final seconds of the lighting demonstration were .difs -- straight out of Constructor!
@Brett: any chance of one of those unknown 3rd party developers getting a further discount?
Suppose someone us, them, me, etc. were to create a new editor or "modding tools" for their game, would that go against the no release of the "new" Tools clause in the license? Or what if we reverted changes back to use the old editor(s) and distributed those? Or is that a NO Editors! in general without further discussion with GG kind of thing?
#143
Good Question. After reading the idea of the modding issue and posting about it i have ideas for some custom modding tools. hopefully we can get an answer?
03/22/2009 (5:14 am)
@Michael HallGood Question. After reading the idea of the modding issue and posting about it i have ideas for some custom modding tools. hopefully we can get an answer?
#144
03/22/2009 (5:23 am)
@Michael: Shoot me an email and let me know what you're looking for. The answer certainly isn't "no editors," it's just not carte blanche. 
#145
1. I own TGEA, if I do the preorder for Torque 3D is my total $505.00 complete?
03/22/2009 (6:04 am)
Engine looks really good, I have always been happy with the GG engines. I think the engine is worth more than what your selling it for, especially considering the Profitabilty vs. Cost ratio. I am sure it will be well worth it (it's still cheaper then the Unreal Engine by far). I just want to clarify the following: 1. I own TGEA, if I do the preorder for Torque 3D is my total $505.00 complete?
#146
03/22/2009 (6:13 am)
@Brett: sorry if already answered, but where can we get that pre-order deal?
#147
03/22/2009 (6:23 am)
@Frank: The pre-order will be available on Tuesday, March 24th, hopefully very early in the AM :) If you visit the site, it should be unmissable. 
#148
I'd just like to say again, I'm really happy with the price point of T3D for TGEA owners. A lot more generous than I expected. I'll almost certainly be in the line for EA :)
That being said, I would deeply appreciate some sort of demo during the EA period. Just to see with my own eyes some of the features running on my box. Time limited and without any ability to mod the scripts is totally fine. Otherwise I may wait a day or two and hear what the buzz is, make sure things don't assplode :P
03/22/2009 (7:29 am)
Good stuff, this thread.I'd just like to say again, I'm really happy with the price point of T3D for TGEA owners. A lot more generous than I expected. I'll almost certainly be in the line for EA :)
That being said, I would deeply appreciate some sort of demo during the EA period. Just to see with my own eyes some of the features running on my box. Time limited and without any ability to mod the scripts is totally fine. Otherwise I may wait a day or two and hear what the buzz is, make sure things don't assplode :P
#149
03/22/2009 (7:35 am)
@Gareth: Maybe we'll just embed a couple demos on the website. That should do the trick :)
#150
Yes, that should do it. :D
03/22/2009 (7:43 am)
OoooOOOOoooh!! Forgot all about that. Cunning, very cunning! Yes, that should do it. :D
#151
03/22/2009 (10:27 am)
No complaints about the price point vs functionality, but I think its a shame if there will no longer be a low cost option with source code for hobbyists who just want to dive in and start learning about the internals of a game engine, and see where the journey takes them.
#152
Ah, I see now Brett. =) Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I'll answer this one. I believe the reason is because GG doesn't want you actually making a game with the basic version per se. The main point of basic is a low-cost entry point to obtaining a T3d license, and for learning, not for actually doing anything with the engine. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to include the river/road, advanced lighting, and source code because then you'd be able to utilize it with the basic version and actually make a cool game.
03/22/2009 (11:00 am)
Quote:
If you can't come up with $1,000 for a 3D game development SDK, Torque 3D is probably overkill for your needs anyway.
Ah, I see now Brett. =) Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Quote:
I don't understand why the basic version doesn't have advanced lighting or the road/river tools. Why those features in particular?
I'll answer this one. I believe the reason is because GG doesn't want you actually making a game with the basic version per se. The main point of basic is a low-cost entry point to obtaining a T3d license, and for learning, not for actually doing anything with the engine. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to include the river/road, advanced lighting, and source code because then you'd be able to utilize it with the basic version and actually make a cool game.
#153
I may be mistaken, but I think TGEA will still be available for a while, so that option will still exist, just not with the newest tech.
03/22/2009 (11:10 am)
Quote:No complaints about the price point vs functionality, but I think its a shame if there will no longer be a low cost option with source code for hobbyists who just want to dive in and start learning about the internals of a game engine, and see where the journey takes them.
I may be mistaken, but I think TGEA will still be available for a while, so that option will still exist, just not with the newest tech.
#154
@Sean H.: I *do* think Torque 3D basic best serves as an entry point rather than a "does everything" game engine, but that's not to say I don't expect developers to finish projects with it. I do, but just as with any engine that lacks source, there will be more compromises that with an engine that includes it. For years now, nothing like river / road tools or advanced lighting existed for Torque, and there have been a LOT of cool Torque games made. So, while Basic might have only core tools, and not the latest, greatest lighting model, or the really fancy tools, I don't think those will weigh in all that heavily in considering how "complete" the Basic version is for finishing a game.
03/22/2009 (11:10 am)
@Adrian: For learning the ins and outs of a game engine source code, I think TGEA is still a really good option, and probably a better entry point for people who lean toward programming rather than art / design. TGEA will still be available to serve that role.@Sean H.: I *do* think Torque 3D basic best serves as an entry point rather than a "does everything" game engine, but that's not to say I don't expect developers to finish projects with it. I do, but just as with any engine that lacks source, there will be more compromises that with an engine that includes it. For years now, nothing like river / road tools or advanced lighting existed for Torque, and there have been a LOT of cool Torque games made. So, while Basic might have only core tools, and not the latest, greatest lighting model, or the really fancy tools, I don't think those will weigh in all that heavily in considering how "complete" the Basic version is for finishing a game.
#156
03/22/2009 (12:31 pm)
As far as I can tell, the T3D pre-order window for TGEA owners starts March 24th. When does it end? I’d like to know because I need to do a bit of budgeting.
#157
Cool, thanks for clarifying that Brett.
@David
03/22/2009 (1:10 pm)
Quote:TGEA will still be available to serve that role.
Cool, thanks for clarifying that Brett.
@David
Quote:The Preorder will last until Torque 3D ships.
We are starting it next week and expect that we will ship Torque 3D sometime in May (this is a rough estimate).
#158
Isn't preordering just a type of insurance for GG? In that they will take money before delivering the product in case it should fail to meet expectations? If they wanted to reward the existing customer base then wouldn't it be fair to keep the discount for the live of T3D?
That being said I do think that base TGE was a great value, but it was nearly 1/10 the price of this release(when I 1st purchased it I think it was $100). I don't see the T3D being 10x the product TGE is, hope I'm wrong :)
03/22/2009 (1:58 pm)
Too much money and many more promises. I'm staying on TGE 1.5.2 and will watch with interest on how this plays out.Isn't preordering just a type of insurance for GG? In that they will take money before delivering the product in case it should fail to meet expectations? If they wanted to reward the existing customer base then wouldn't it be fair to keep the discount for the live of T3D?
That being said I do think that base TGE was a great value, but it was nearly 1/10 the price of this release(when I 1st purchased it I think it was $100). I don't see the T3D being 10x the product TGE is, hope I'm wrong :)
#159
We are still to be shown what Torque 3D turned out to be like, so I don't see why you would not be able to say the same (being a great value at this price) about Torque 3D soon.
There's still confusion over many of the new features - the terrain system, the set of new tools, the lighting system, the complete list of built-in shaders or the material editor.
So until we get to know all these, I don't see how you could compare Torque3D feature-wise to anything at all.
03/22/2009 (2:19 pm)
@Joseph: Nobody forces anyone to preorder. Torque 3D probably needs thorough testing before it can go out of beta. Early Adopter is basically getting a price drop in return for helping squash or just acknowledging the possibility of bugs. We are still to be shown what Torque 3D turned out to be like, so I don't see why you would not be able to say the same (being a great value at this price) about Torque 3D soon.
There's still confusion over many of the new features - the terrain system, the set of new tools, the lighting system, the complete list of built-in shaders or the material editor.
So until we get to know all these, I don't see how you could compare Torque3D feature-wise to anything at all.
#160
"You've never seen a game ship with TGE that wasn't done by the developers?"
I said that hasn't got far. None of the games on those pages, from my experience with them, have generated enough userbase to really bring enough new users to use Torque. And another thing, if the whole business model is for people to play games made with T3D, to then come to this website to purchase the engine, how do you think that will work? Most people won't see a games splash screen and go, hey I want that engine just because this games made with it, then come here and drop $1000 on an engine. Because, most of the people who purchased because they saw the splash screen are hobbyists, and $150 isn't really a lot of money for messing around, that's why I got TGE/A in the first place, but $1000 breaks the whole idea of the business model.
"without having full source code access."
I'm pretty sure that you get the full source code to the Source engine whenever you buy a game running Source. And about what Brett said about maybe not getting a license, I've never heard of Valve not wanting money, the whole idea was that you made a game ahead of licensing so that you know you can make the money back. (Different than spending $1000 to find out you don't even like the engine.)
03/22/2009 (2:59 pm)
@J.C: "You've never seen a game ship with TGE that wasn't done by the developers?"
I said that hasn't got far. None of the games on those pages, from my experience with them, have generated enough userbase to really bring enough new users to use Torque. And another thing, if the whole business model is for people to play games made with T3D, to then come to this website to purchase the engine, how do you think that will work? Most people won't see a games splash screen and go, hey I want that engine just because this games made with it, then come here and drop $1000 on an engine. Because, most of the people who purchased because they saw the splash screen are hobbyists, and $150 isn't really a lot of money for messing around, that's why I got TGE/A in the first place, but $1000 breaks the whole idea of the business model.
"without having full source code access."
I'm pretty sure that you get the full source code to the Source engine whenever you buy a game running Source. And about what Brett said about maybe not getting a license, I've never heard of Valve not wanting money, the whole idea was that you made a game ahead of licensing so that you know you can make the money back. (Different than spending $1000 to find out you don't even like the engine.)
Torque 3D Owner Steve YorkshireRifles Acaster