Torque 3D Development - Beta: Part Deux

#61 @Peter: I can sympathize, though you also need to keep in mind that mac will be supported at release (as we stated). The builds now are just beta builds, not final release ones. In no way would we ever suggest for someone to expect the beta builds to be the same as our final release and it should not be evaluated that way. What you are buying is the end release product, which will support mac.

What you do get with the beta builds is an early look, help contribute what gets fixed, also you get to contribute to some of the development of the tech. There are a lot of good conversations in the forums right now, we are getting a lot of great feedback and we are specifically taking suggestions and comments by the beta users into account while developing. Obviously we try to do this anyways, though this is a much more direct way. So the benefit to you for the beta build is not a final release product, but to be able to influence development (as well as get ramped up on some of the new features earlier).

So I do understand your concern but as we have said mac is going to be supported by release. Sure you don't know what those fixes are, though without a beta build access they probably won't mean much to you anyways. What's useful for you as a pre-order is to see things get fixed and voice what you want to get fixed. So I would suggest holding the final official release to a different comparison than what you would for a beta build. We've released many blogs about many of the features of Torque 3D, and we have said it will support mac. If that's not enough for you to do a pre-order then I respect that, but not everyone has to do a pre-order. The whole concept of a pre-order discount is those who support earlier get in earlier, get to give their input earlier on, and get a discount for supporting us early on. There's nothing wrong with waiting until the engine releases and not getting a pre-order if that's what you choose it simply means you will forego the discount. That's part of the point of a pre-order special, people who pick it up early help support the development and contribute to the testing and quality but get some sort of bonus for supporting early.

#62 @Rene & Matthew

I'm a GG fan from day one (just check out the old profile). I'm not upset with you guys, though I must confess that I find Luis' attitude a might offensive (he's on the beta I believe).

I did the whole early adopter thing with TGEA, TGB etc. etc. So I'm not new to it. In the case of T3D, because of the increased price, I need more information to justify the purchase. Even with the discount it's still $505 of my pityful indy budget.

What I'm hoping to see is a simply state of play post with the following summary (I don't need nor care for the details).

1. What features are in the product and are aimed to be in the final product? The videos, while nice are kind of a drip feed with no actual solid list of features.
2. What current issues I should expect when dealing with the beta.

That's it!

I effectively want a heads up so I can make the call. It all boils down to having limited time and resources on my end. I need to be able to get the beta and do something useful with it from day one. Even if that is converting my basic project over to a playable (if not feature complete) state.

#63 Peter, here is a rough list of what has been shown and what is implemented (at least on the Windows side). As the Mac side is not out there is no need to speculate on those. These are straight from Brett's blog and what I have seen so far in using the Beta and our conversion process to it.

Warrior Camp - Check
Racing Kit - A seperate Kit, No
Web Publishing - Check
Wetness & Precip - ??. Some of the stuff mentioned he is working on is in, but the Wetness shader I haven't seen how to envoke that yet.
SSAO - Yes. Still needs more options as I don't think they are exposed.
Depth of Field - Yes.
Advanced Lighting - Yes
Soft Particles - ?? Again unsure, some speculation that it is.
World Editor - Yes and yes!
River & Road Editor - Yes
LIght Rays - Yes
Material Editor - Yes

Some other things not mentioned.

* Scatter Sky. This is the day/night stuff you seen in some of the videos. That was put in Beta 2 and works pretty well. Still a few more features that need to be added to the animation control, but it is all there.
* New Cloud system. I believe this is new. Much better control over the clouds.
* New water option to fill the whole level with a massive water block.
* Simple terrain option to put in a flat terrain to place objects on. Not really for gameplay, but for simple testing and model work.
* Live assets. I haven't tried that yet, but so far it looks like it is workign according to comments.

As for issues there are some and they are being worked on. They knocked out quite a bit of issues in Beta 2 while releasing some new features and there is still a fairly long list and a lot of bug reports. If it helps any, we were considering waiting till after release to start the conversion process, but we started early because Beta 1 was in good enough shape to get started. Beta 2 brought the sky changes we needed to finish up a few things and I believe Beta 3 is going to be more bug fixes and Mac support.

#64 And don't forget T3D now comes with more cowbell.

#65 That is the ringing I keep hearing :-). Evil ringing.

#66 Love the fact that detail maps are now on the texture not on the whole map. In the TGEA days, I keep scratching my head when I use a grass detail texture and then come up to sand with the detail texture. My brain was going, "Error, error. Sand looks like grass. *pop* Rebooting."

Any plans to add more to terrains like Specular maps for shiny snow and stuff?

#67 Just wanted to be clear. What is the exact cutoff time for the pre-order.
I may just have enough money to pull it but I want to be extra careful.
Thanks!!

#68 "I got a fever, and the only prescription is more T3D cowbell!"

#69 @Stephen, above in the post it says:

"This discount will be reduced to $100 OFF at the end of May."

I don't know when the preorder will end, but you can save $100 if you get it this month. It is definitely worth it. T3D is awesome.

#70 @Stephen:

Quote:Just wanted to be clear. What is the exact cutoff time for the pre-order. I may just have enough money to pull it but I want to be extra careful.
Thanks!!

I wouldn't count on it being available after 12:01am PST on June 1st =)

#71 Oh I don't doubt that it's awesome. That's why I want to get it.

#72

Quote:I'm not upset with you guys, though I must confess that I find Luis' attitude a might offensive (he's on the beta I believe).

@Peter - What does that have to do with anything? He's on the beta and you find him a bit offesive - that comment isn't productive to your cause at all nor does it belong directed at GG.

Quote:2. What current issues I should expect when dealing with the beta.

If you pre-order, you'll be able to find out. Why does finding out what issues are being fixed in the beta need to be made public before you'll purchase Torque3D?

I understand your concern because it's not your normal hobby engine price, but that's because Torque3D is geared toward more professional developers (as you are well aware). GG never had to give us a beta release, but they chose to because the company really is community driven and they love us. I think that having access to the beta version prior to the full release of Torque3D is very beneficial to get familiar with some of the new features and to get a head start on the direction you want to go with your old/current projects.

Although, it is possible to get something completed with the Torque beta's that have been released, I wouldn't "expect" it because features are constantly being added and bugs are constantly being fixed, and nor would I make it requirement of mine before I purchased an engine.

Now is the best time to purchase it because of all the discounts you get on the pre-order - of course you can still wait to see more info, pay more, and could also wait for GG to decide whether or not they are going to put up a public, web-based demo that you can play around with to help make your decision.

I'll tell you this, if you are serious about making games (you sound like you are) then the Torque3D engine is a wise investment. If you pre-order it, you are given the opportunity to be involved in the development of Torque3D. There are already a couple community features that have been accepted and implemented within Torque3D - where else do you get that? Being able to suggest or implement an idea into the new game engine and have the dev's possibly make it part of the public release for all to see? Features that make game development easier on YOU. That's a rare thing these days.

#73

Quote:I must confess that I find Luis' attitude a might offensive (he's on the beta I believe).

Ofensive??? because i asked how would beta issues affect your decision?? you don't like questions?

Am sorry you find questions ofensive - remind me never to ask you anything.

As for the fixing, GG said they will move final release from May to June so that they CAN solve ALL those issues before release

#74 Guys, please don't make something personal out of this. There were valid points and everyone has the right to decide how best to go about evaluating and purchasing a new product and about finding what best suits one's needs.

#75 Peter's comments echo a sentiment shared by many people here. It is a catch-22 to entice people to pay for a product with existing issues while simultaneously preventing people from seeing what those issues are.

If the beta issues shouldn't affect a buyer's decision(Luis), and if the beta shouldn't be evaluated like the final product(Matt), why hide them in a private forum? And why not come out and say what they are since the beta's not representative of the final product?

Even if the private forum is the place for those issues, developers and buyers here seem to be intentionally refusing to give any indication of what those issues are despite the fact that many potential buyers are concerned about it. When it comes to T3D in general, people here are more than willing to make public their positive opinions and feedback, but there seems to be some kind of 'hush' policy in place when it comes to problems with the engine.

Oh BTW, congrats on the beta 2 guys. Nice work.

And people, please withhold your opinions on the speed of the engine. It IS still a beta. =)

#76 1. I would like to read the T3D-Beta-Forum in "You-Can-Not-Post"-Mode.

2. Because the lack of #1, i know nothing about portals. As far as i know Interiors (DIFs) are not recommended in T3D.

#77
Hmm, to me it seems you're overlooking an important point: this is pre-ordering. It simply is how the whole process works. You take on a certain risk for early access, a good discount, and for participating in the final shaping phase of a product.

#78 Any issues with T3D are being worked on and bugs are being fixed. It just do not seem relevant to discuss T3D 'issues' as if they are permanent fixtures of the engine, in an open forum where such discussion will easily get out of context.

If you take part in the Beta pre-ordering program you will be able to help find unexpected problems so they may be fixed much sooner. Also as Rene mention, participating in some of the design features.

T3D's core features have been carefully detailed in Brett's continuing Blog posts. Once T3D is final, it will contain everything Brett have mentioned and many other smaller detail features.

I believe Garage Games have been very honest and generous with T3D so far, there is no evidence that this will change. So you can not go wrong participating in the pre-ordering Beta phase of T3D.

#79 Exactly

What Peter is talking about are issues after release that we would need to deal with while producing our games - the issues known now are not the ones that we will deal then - no one would realease a game using a beta engine - and it's not even a final beta yet.

Also my question to Peter was intended at finding out what sort of issue he wanted to kow if it's present for the time beeing.

Developers and buyers are not intentionally refusing to give any indication - at this stage there are quite a few issues known and beeing found - That would be quite a post and need changing everyday - and they are all beeing fixed as they are found - so no they don't matter for a decision to join Beta

#80 @Luis

I have to disagree with you totally. I'm not talking about issues after release because I can only go on what is present now! I don't know the future and neither do you. Unless the words come straight from GG thenselves. Any claims you make are simply speculation about what you THINK will happen.

The only way bugs and issues will get fixed is if people like me are using the beta to convert existing games or create new ones. That's the only way that you would come across real world scenarios and so find real world issues with the engine.

If T3D isn't yet in a state where I can attempt to realistically do that, then what exactly is this beta for?

If everything is going to be different in the release version (as you and others have implied and I assume wihtout any indication of this from GG themselves), then this isn't in fact a beta. It's an alpha. If features are not yet locked down, then it's an alpha. If it's not yet ready for black box or even grey box testing, then it's an alpha.

If, as GG have indicated, they intend to release T3D fairly soon. The the following is most likely true:-

* There must be a locked set of features for T3D.
* There are only minor changes, bug and issues being fixed/considered.
* Features with placeholders are being completed and added/enabled.
* No new features are being considered (that would lead to feature creep and throw any internal release schedule out the window).
* Not all bugs will be fixed by release 1.0. (There is no bug free software in the world so usually only major or show stopper bugs get prioroty).

If you don't mind me asking. Have you actually developed a game before? I only ask because if the answer is yes, then what exactly did you hope to get out of this beta?

It sounds like you were not intending to create anything usable from it.