Let's make a new tool for DIF?

#21 @Brian:

DIF's are fast, they are efficient, and they (or something like them) are very standard in the game industry. You can make your game entirely in DTS format if you want, but you will quickly run into problems with frame rate, etc. As explained in the documentation, DIF's are usually used for buildings, bridges, interiors, and other large stationary objects. Depending upon the requirements of your game, you could decide not to use them, but you are really giving up a valuable tool for getting more content into your game in a much more efficient way.

Having your artist complain about DIF editors is a little like having the guitar player in a band complain that six strings are a hassle. It goes with the job. However, you can break the art up, and have one person create the DIF's and the other create the DTS's and animations. This is a very common way of doing things.

Some day, when we have much more powerful computers and GPU's that are on every desktop, a pure polygon soup rendering system, where the artists don't have to worry about how many polygons are in the scene will be the norm. At that time, programmers will be able to use a very high level scripting language and not worry about speed or memory usage. But, until that time, we still have the laws of physics to deal with. DIF's are a reality for most games. This is not a weakness of Torque, it is a feature that makes your game run on many more systems when embraced.

Making games is hard. Learning C++ is hard, then learning how the 400,000 lines of Torque work is difficult. On the art side, figuring out Maya or any 3D editor is difficult, and adding in Quark or other editor adds to the work load. We have done our best to bring powerful tools to the more than just the elite few. We are doing our best, but we can;'t defy the laws of physics.

-Jeff Tunnell GG

#22 The topic of this thread is something I heard quite a lot from the artists I knew when I was doing the modding thing. Jeff, I don't think anybody has a problem with the DIF or BSP based format for the models. That is not really the main point of contention, it is the fact that people would rather work with something besides BSP editors which cause some major head aches for modelers. BSP editors do not give you the freedom to truly create but cause you to design within their limitations. The common theme I see running through this thread is people would like to see a method to create their DIF buildings in regular modeling applications and then export them into TGE as DIF's the same way they do DTS shapes. I would also like to take this chance to bring up the question I have been having about Tribes 2. What BSP editor did you use for the interiors? My guess would be that you used the MAX2MAP tool that I have seen people talking about around here and then took it from there. I also followed the links in the above posts and saw that one of the community members is working on a solution for creating DIF shapes from common file formats. I think once you embrace this fact and let the people use what they want for content creation rather than limiting it to a few BSP editors creativity will go through the roof.

A game can be created straight with only DTS shapes, I believe Bravetree's Think Tanks proves this point. But then I guess it is the type of game you are making. Still if you are hungry for some straight polygon soup then you do not need the most advanced computer on the market. That is a little bit of an exaggeration. There are actually quite a few commercial engines available that give you this option which run quite alright on today's hardware. If people do not have recent hardware then it has been my experience that these are not going to be your gaming market. Anyway this my two cents, maybe three.

#23 If you think Blender would be interesting check out my plan. The nice part of Blender is that it's cross platform and it's easy to write scripts that will enhance your workflow.

#24 Yeah but I have looked at Blender before. I see why they could not make it into a commercial product any longer. They were too chaotic in design and layout to make a tolerable workflow. It is just too much of a hassle and for the features it brings you are better off learning the larger suits like 3DS MAX and Maya. The way I see it free does not always equal usable, this I say due to some of my past quickie projects. :P

#25 This thread are leaning more and more towards "let's replace .difs, shall we?" since there are working exporters (AFAIK) to the major 3D modelers out there (max, maya & truespace) and another 2 seems to be in the making (blender and milkshape).
Hey, search the resources for BMP2MAP and you'll even find a tool that converts a bmp to a legal .map file.

So I ask you, what is all the fuzz about ???

#26 From what I have read it does not seem like the majority are stating that they want to get rid of the BSP based interiors, rather they want a way to work their normal applications into the interior creation. Which is not a bad idea as far as I can tell. What I have seen from the TGE and TSE demo the DIF models fit into the overall look and feel of the world. What an artist has to go through to get that DIF looking the way that it needs to be might be more of a hassle than if they could just go through and build it in MAX. I have never looked at the code, but my guess is that if you had the time one could get something simple like an OBJ to DIF working. You would not need to have anything fancy just a way to contain the UV coords, etc. Maybe some more familiar with the TGE set-up could say that better. Anyway I can't just keep throwing my two cents in or I will go broke.

Jorgen
I think that the artists want an easier method of creating thier models. BMP2MAP sounds liek it might be a mighty big pain in the @$$ for content creation.

#27 @Bill

The thing is, asking to use 3DS Max and it's attendant tools and workflow really is the same thing as asking for DIFs to be replaced with something else.

There are a few map exporters. They all suck, not because their authors are unskilled or haven't put enough work in, but because 3DS Max is just too open ended to produce good DIF objects.

#28 I don't think it's a problem with the people making AppX2DIF being inexperienced or unskilled or lazy. I think it's more a problem of trying to push out a conceptual modeling idea that the original programs were never designed for. Polygon modeling and brush modeling are similar in many ways conceptually, but they are extremely different in low-level practice. While I'm not a huge fan of any of the map exporters (though DigitalFlux's GameSpace exporter is the best one of the lot by miles), I can't point fingers at the creators. I doubt I could do it any better (though I doubt I'd try, either).

Hell, I'm having trouble trying to get a six-legged demon with a turret attached to its stomach and the ability to grab and fire it from both sides to work...

#29 Hi Mark, when you read the title of this thread it says something about creating a new tool for dif creation. My though is why there are already so many little applications out there that already create BSP or CSG architecture. All of them vary in their level of maturity but they all have the same draw backs. I see why Garage Games decided to go with something like Quark since it is fairly well matured and it has a license that is wide open. My approach to most things in life is why not take the path of least resistance. Why build another editor that will inevitably have the same problems when you can take something that is already set up to create models and use the output from that. Finding a way to convert an OBJ file to a working DIF seems a much more expedient path, IMHO.

That also seemed to be the opinion of others. While I was poking around I checked out the Synapse Gaming link in one of the post above, what I read on the site was pretty interesting.

Quote:
Xdif is a generic dif (Torque Game Engine interior file) compiler framework developed by Synapse Gaming to provide an open interface for loading custom file formats and compiling arbitrary geometry such as convex, concave, and open mesh objects.

The part that I found particularly interesting is the part about "compiling arbitrary geometry such as convex, concave, and open mesh objects" into DIF shapes. My suggestion to the author is get it out soon, it looks like you have a hungry market. If it truly works then I see no reason why a modeler needs to be strapped behind something like Quark when they can work with something they are much more comfortable working with.

#30 Hi Brian, and welcome to the community.

You might have your artist try this resource. I tried to get it to look and feel as close to Worldcraft/Hammer as possible. Once used to it, you'll find QuArK is a far better program that Hammer, except in perhaps the Arch tool. The "find microbrushes" tool I could not live with out.

-Eric F

#31

Quote:
if you had the time one could get something simple like an OBJ to DIF working. You would not need to have anything fancy just a way to contain the UV coords, etc.

Oh! Is that what I've been doing wrong =P

#32 To elaborate on my earlier post, and to counter some of Bens arguments :)

The hypothetical tools, 3ds2dts/3ds2dif.

3ds2dts doesn't have to support animation, in fact it should be used mostly for static shapes (like a vehicle), secondly (and Ogre3d supports this) there are LOD reduction routines that allow automated LOD meshes to be created (with the associated uglyness, admittedly). Finally not being supported natively isn't a problem since virtually every modeling package can import/export 3DS - Sure it would be limited, but would also open up the posibilities to the (programmer/)artist to use a preferred tool, than to foist an old version of Max upon them. Most of the artists I have available to me have either lightwave or max6.

I belive a 3ds2dts convertor would be very useful creating static geometry such has vehicles, and agree that it would be totally useless for character work.

I also agree that better support for the major packages is essential for the commercial success of Torque, and is much more desirable for the majority of artists, and situations.

With 3ds2dif, I've heard that max2map is a decent tool, I've not gotten around to try it yet, but I would think that a 3ds2map would be just as acceptable. I'm going to have a look at Doom Builder as well, to see how that operates. I must admit I know nothing about bsp brushes apart from what I've forgotton when I used to make doom levels :)


All I was advocating was a couple of simple tools that a programmer or an artist pushed for time could use as stock shapes to quickly prototype levels. As a newbie to torque, I've had to use the assets provided with the source to do my first steps and mockups which certainly puts a strain on ones imagination :)


I also appriciate that GGs resources are limited, and I don't expect the moon on a stick. I'd be happy to the converters myself, and release them into the public domain - but I'm not at that level with TGE yet :)

#33 Why not just load 3ds directly (with collision):
Shape3ds

#34 Because,,,we are lazy to add a collision mesh.

Some Engines Like "Black Hawk Down" from Novalogic use the same technique. one 3ds file building and add collision meshes. this technique take a lot of time, but look great in game.

sorry,,, but its the truth :(

edit:
I want to test Shape3ds,,,Thanks

Sorry for my bad english

#35 @Matthew
"Why not just load 3ds directly (with collision)"

Because I wouldn't want other people stealing my IP ! :)

1. No importers available for DTS
2. 3DS is probably the best documented format out there. I don't think it would be appropriate to let users hijack the models.
3. Okay TGE uses would still be able to borrow them if they wanted, but thats a very small subset of people.

#36 With all the discussion about finding an alternative to Quark perhaps there is someone who can help point me in the right direction with the problems I'm having. I'm writing an exporter for Blender that generates a .map file which must be passed to map2dif. It seems that the people writing the Milkshape exporter are experiencing similar problems. So perhaps someone here can help us kill two birds with one stone and we'll have the ability to generate maps with Blender and Milkshape.

www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5851

Bill Fox, have you looked at Blender 2.33? Much better than the older versions. Besides Maya and 3D max are too much $$$ for me right now.

#37 Works for us:

DOOM Builder
->
Quark

That's for making dungeons and other interiors... these can be connected to exterior zones, etc. Exteriors are done in a similarly progressive method, from heightfield, texture, and entity maps -> Quark.

I'm a big fan of consistant editing with consistant data. Special cases blow.

-Josh Ritter
Myth Maker
Prairie Games

#38 I am currently wokring on a map editor, its pretty stable, its based of Tread 3D, and i'm looking for someone to help me out on it, GUI Design and stuff would be great, i'm going to prob be making it cross-platform soon Contact me if your interested




-Chris Timberlake
-Darkness Studios

#39 I have participated in other threads very similar to this forum. From what I've read on GG's forums, Artist (like myself) want and need to use their prefered tools. If 80% of the game community uses max it seems ideal to develop a plugin such as xyz2dif as noted above.

I also strongly agree with the limitations that artists claim of BSP editors.

Quote:Bill Fox "BSP editors do not give you the freedom to truly create but cause you to design within their limitations."

I also wanted to note that a reason to work with all of my geometry in a max/maya type program is that it is a good start on hi-res animations, which I want to incorperate into my game as well. Using a BSP specific program would/will complicate my production pipeline.

jimmy

#40 Jimmy, that is very true, that is why i am working on this editor. IMHO I think it would be perfect because it will allow users to make plugins and things they need that can basically do anythign from adding a new map format to changing the UI. I'm also planning on making it corss-platform aswell as themeable, i'm currently looking into GUI Libraries and toolkits.