TSE Demo disapointment
by Jacob Dankovchik · in General Discussion · 08/22/2004 (12:01 pm) · 25 replies
I downloaded the TSE demo a while back, and when i noticed it had normal maps in the data files, right away i got very excited because i the high-detail effects you can get with them. However when i ran TSE, i was rather disapointed... The normal maps dispalyed in TSE didn't really show what i was expecting at all, and this was a minor set back for me. Nothing too severe though.
Then last night i decided maybe the normal map support doesn't suck in torque, the demonstration just doesn't show them well. So, i setup my own test, and was totally blown away! Turns out, that IS the case. So for anyone interested, i'll post the two iamges for you, and explain the test performed.
Now, first i used a skin file from doom 3 from a monster called a mancubus. Notice in the skin its strictly color, no shading of any sort. In TSE i replaced one of the floor textures with this:
Nice color detail, but no lighting, so if you were to apply that, it would look very bland. So i replaced a floor texture with that, also replaced the floors normal map with the normal map of the mancubus skin.. I was VERY satisfied with my end result:
Now, i feel THAT shows the power of the normal maps MUCH more. I feel GG sould perhaps make a better attempt at shaowin off this awesome feature, it would excite people MUCH more for TSE. Not only does it bring awesome looks to your textures and models, but saves a crap load of time from not having to shade any detail on your skin, just color away!
Anyhow, hope you all enjoyed this.. ;) I know i sure did when i first saw it!
Then last night i decided maybe the normal map support doesn't suck in torque, the demonstration just doesn't show them well. So, i setup my own test, and was totally blown away! Turns out, that IS the case. So for anyone interested, i'll post the two iamges for you, and explain the test performed.
Now, first i used a skin file from doom 3 from a monster called a mancubus. Notice in the skin its strictly color, no shading of any sort. In TSE i replaced one of the floor textures with this:
Nice color detail, but no lighting, so if you were to apply that, it would look very bland. So i replaced a floor texture with that, also replaced the floors normal map with the normal map of the mancubus skin.. I was VERY satisfied with my end result:
Now, i feel THAT shows the power of the normal maps MUCH more. I feel GG sould perhaps make a better attempt at shaowin off this awesome feature, it would excite people MUCH more for TSE. Not only does it bring awesome looks to your textures and models, but saves a crap load of time from not having to shade any detail on your skin, just color away!
Anyhow, hope you all enjoyed this.. ;) I know i sure did when i first saw it!
#2
08/22/2004 (12:53 pm)
Wow! that looks better than doom3!
#3
@Stefan: He means TSE all the way, as far as I understand it.
08/22/2004 (12:55 pm)
That looks really nice! I'm with you on this, the first time I had a look at the demo, I didn't really notice the normal map effect, but this makes it clear, all legal stuff aside!@Stefan: He means TSE all the way, as far as I understand it.
#4
And i dont think id should really mind.. I mean, you can download that skin from somewhere else, im sure.. And nobody here takes t and uses it, im sure there wont be a problem. And if they DO for some reason have a problem, i can easily take it down. ;)
08/22/2004 (12:55 pm)
I meant TSE's demo.. They dont really show off the power of the normal maps enough i think.. I mean, compare that exmaple there to the rest of the demonstration of TSE.. I think that shows the power of it much more..And i dont think id should really mind.. I mean, you can download that skin from somewhere else, im sure.. And nobody here takes t and uses it, im sure there wont be a problem. And if they DO for some reason have a problem, i can easily take it down. ;)
#5
08/22/2004 (2:53 pm)
I'm with you Jacob, that really shows off TSE's power, it would probably be a good idea for GG to put more stuff like that in the demo. 
#6
I agree completely though, that shows off the normal mapping way better than the floor that we do have.
08/22/2004 (3:05 pm)
Please remember a few things, first off, this is the "Early Adopter" demo. If you look at the TSE roadmap, half the stuff that is going into this is still down the road. I agree completely though, that shows off the normal mapping way better than the floor that we do have.
#7
We have a LOT of work planned on the demo - not just tech, but also content - before it's done. I'm glad you were able to experiment with what was there and quickly get a test like that set up, though!
08/22/2004 (3:17 pm)
Quickly, let us pave the road with mancubus skin!We have a LOT of work planned on the demo - not just tech, but also content - before it's done. I'm glad you were able to experiment with what was there and quickly get a test like that set up, though!
#8
08/22/2004 (4:08 pm)
Ya, i must say, i am SO happy about this test! I expected soemthing, but i never saw this comming, and im totally ecstatic knowing that my game will be packing this! AND that you guys are still doin improvements! :D Doin great so far, must say! ;)
#9
A good tool for TSE => "Cartography Shop 5" with Normal mapping.
Check Cartography Shop Forum
08/22/2004 (5:26 pm)
Impressive,,,TSE is now in my "wish list" :)A good tool for TSE => "Cartography Shop 5" with Normal mapping.
Check Cartography Shop Forum
#10
Jacob: Aye, the normal mapping in the TSE demo is very subtle. I think it looks good, as both the newer games (like Doom3 and FarCry) both experience a bit of "OMG!!lookatwhatwecando!!11" with normal surfaces. (VERY bumpy surfaces that stand out, just like how when environment mapping first started to crop up and everything was chrome-shiney...) But yes, there should be at least something that really thrusts TSE's normal mapping out into the forefront. Maybe a really bumpy object, floating around like those orbs...
*pokes around on the forums more* Nevermind about the "interface warts" comment. Seems Josh is implementing a Hammer-like visual UV editor. Woot!
08/22/2004 (6:01 pm)
Whoa, CShop is going/already supports normal mapping? I think that alone is the enough to make me switch over to it, interface warts and all. :)Jacob: Aye, the normal mapping in the TSE demo is very subtle. I think it looks good, as both the newer games (like Doom3 and FarCry) both experience a bit of "OMG!!lookatwhatwecando!!11" with normal surfaces. (VERY bumpy surfaces that stand out, just like how when environment mapping first started to crop up and everything was chrome-shiney...) But yes, there should be at least something that really thrusts TSE's normal mapping out into the forefront. Maybe a really bumpy object, floating around like those orbs...
*pokes around on the forums more* Nevermind about the "interface warts" comment. Seems Josh is implementing a Hammer-like visual UV editor. Woot!
#11
Oh the fun, the fun!
I'm kinda backwards with this stuff, I started out with doing art in games by starting out with normal maps, displacement maps, cube/shadow maps and advanced pixel shader effects because I thought it was cool and got into it, then had to go backwards to learn all the basics, so I can't wait to sit down and start playing around with this stuff in torque. oh the crazy stuff I have planned in my head. :)
Older stuff:
08/22/2004 (6:10 pm)
<---Rubbing hands eagerly for displacement mapping on Milestone 3.Oh the fun, the fun!
I'm kinda backwards with this stuff, I started out with doing art in games by starting out with normal maps, displacement maps, cube/shadow maps and advanced pixel shader effects because I thought it was cool and got into it, then had to go backwards to learn all the basics, so I can't wait to sit down and start playing around with this stuff in torque. oh the crazy stuff I have planned in my head. :)
Older stuff:
#12
Yes! Yes!
This is damned exciting stuff... thanks for posting this Jacob.
08/22/2004 (9:21 pm)
"Quickly, let us pave the road with mancubus skin!"Yes! Yes!
This is damned exciting stuff... thanks for posting this Jacob.
#13
08/22/2004 (9:33 pm)
Heh, no problem.. ;) Felt maybe something like this should be exposed to as much of the community as possible, so that way we know what kind of power we're holding.. :D 
#14
TSE is on the list for me - later this month probably. I really like the glow from those lights....
Rich
08/22/2004 (10:07 pm)
Great atmosphere in those shots. Very Alien/Aliens-like low-light creepiness.TSE is on the list for me - later this month probably. I really like the glow from those lights....
Rich
#15
Anyway, not bad shots, hope someone adds at least a little more ambient light as black shadows are boring. Anyway nice to see something starting to take shape that uses the shaders properly.
08/23/2004 (8:11 pm)
I agree on the TSE demo being a lot less impressive than I expected. 90% of what's in there can be done in our DX7 engine with a few tricks. Of course I assumed that it was capable ofa lot more and just wasn't properly realised in the demo. The TSE demo is only a small step up from the regular TGE engine.Anyway, not bad shots, hope someone adds at least a little more ambient light as black shadows are boring. Anyway nice to see something starting to take shape that uses the shaders properly.
#16
08/23/2004 (8:41 pm)
Considering it is a Demo of an Alpha...
#17
08/23/2004 (8:52 pm)
TSE is AwSoMe, I just need a better PC and $150.
#18
08/23/2004 (9:28 pm)
Ya, every day im more excited by TSE.. Since i did that normal map test, i can't stop thnikin of it and hopin for it ALL to be done.. It should be totally killer, and wonderful to have that power at your hands. My games full vision will now be made.. =D Thanks GG! ;)
#19
08/24/2004 (1:37 am)
That's amazing, Tim. Nice job. :)
#20
08/24/2004 (2:06 am)
Bwahahaha...all your Timothy are belong to us!
Torque Owner Stefan Lundmark
Do you mean that you think the demo should be changed to reflect TSE's capabilities?
EDit: And btw, I'm not sure it's safe to put up a texture like that, Doom3 is after all a product and laws apply.. you know. Don't want to kick this example down the grave but just be careful.