Garage Games using XNA framework?
by Scott Stubs · in Torque Game Engine · 07/17/2006 (3:22 pm) · 49 replies
What's this that I read on The ZBuffer (http://thezbuffer.com/articles/405.aspx)? Anyone care to speculate? It would be a hugely smart move on their part. If they do release a managed, XNA engine, then my development platform becomes a no-brainer.
#22
Once the benifits outweigh the costs for a technology, it has to be given an honest evaluation. A C# game development platform is no longer something that can be dismissed, and it should be a viable tool for the indy tool-box.
07/19/2006 (5:35 pm)
Quote:Hit the nail on the head there.
I think it was Da Vinci who said, "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." I think that holds true for software development: simplicity should be preferred to performance gains in *most* cases. If that weren't true, we'd still be programming every piece of our software titles with machine code, ASM, or even C. But we traded those in for less complexity and more abstractions -- easier development -- long ago. With that in mind, it would be hypocritical to say the same leap doesn't apply to the native to managed transition.
Once the benifits outweigh the costs for a technology, it has to be given an honest evaluation. A C# game development platform is no longer something that can be dismissed, and it should be a viable tool for the indy tool-box.
#23
http://editorials.teamxbox.com/xbox/1688/XNA-Game-Studio-Express-Power-to-the-Gamers/p1/
I would expect to hear some news fairly soon...
08/14/2006 (4:57 pm)
In light of this: http://editorials.teamxbox.com/xbox/1688/XNA-Game-Studio-Express-Power-to-the-Gamers/p1/
I would expect to hear some news fairly soon...
#24
trade performance for the duration of the applications life.
for speed during the single one time development phase.
sounds like a bandaid solution for another problem.
that problem being developing insecure services.
08/14/2006 (5:27 pm)
Seems insane to me.trade performance for the duration of the applications life.
for speed during the single one time development phase.
sounds like a bandaid solution for another problem.
that problem being developing insecure services.
#25
The reason some folks like managed code is because it reduces the invested development time and the complexity of the code required to make a game. Those are good things.
And look at the current state of game development: it takes huge budgets and large teams to do anything decent. GarageGames has been chipping away at that idea by giving a huge game engine to the community for next to nothing.
Microsoft is doing the same with XNA by giving developers an easier way to develop games, which is good for Microsoft (more games for Xbox360 and Windows) and good for developers since it reduces the time and cost to get a game out there.
Less complexity is definitely a good thing, even if it comes at a performance cost.
08/14/2006 (7:31 pm)
Huh? Insecure services...I'm not so sure you know what you're talking about.The reason some folks like managed code is because it reduces the invested development time and the complexity of the code required to make a game. Those are good things.
And look at the current state of game development: it takes huge budgets and large teams to do anything decent. GarageGames has been chipping away at that idea by giving a huge game engine to the community for next to nothing.
Microsoft is doing the same with XNA by giving developers an easier way to develop games, which is good for Microsoft (more games for Xbox360 and Windows) and good for developers since it reduces the time and cost to get a game out there.
Less complexity is definitely a good thing, even if it comes at a performance cost.
#26
08/14/2006 (7:38 pm)
Get ready because those Insane Kids are comming to steal our jobs. :)
#27
The monopoly has carried over indeed. This just proves everyone has their price.
08/14/2006 (9:18 pm)
Quote:
Posted: Dec 11, 2001 00:55
I don't see GarageGames signing up for .Net services of any kind. We simply do not trust Microsoft enough. I could envision them getting us all set up on .Net myWallet services at a very attractive "introductory" rate, then high jacking us once we are hooked in and dependent.
On a personal note, we have all switched to either Opera or Mozilla browsers, and are actively attempting to wean ourselves of Office, Outlook, and other MS products. We simply do not want to pay the MS tax any longer. It is our little voice of resistance to the proven illegal monopoly.
This monopoly is carrying over into games and will affect you in the future, but that is a subject for a column or .plan.
Jeff Tunnell GG
The monopoly has carried over indeed. This just proves everyone has their price.
#28
What price are you talking about? What monopoly? How in the world is opening up a product to even more developers (indies & major studios) a monopoly? We're still GarageGames, and we saw an opportunity to support indies on a major console. This is good news for developers. Pulling up a forum post from 5 years ago just goes to show how much technology changes in 5 years. Think about where you were and what type of computer you were using 5 years ago. That's a long time ago.
08/14/2006 (9:25 pm)
David,What price are you talking about? What monopoly? How in the world is opening up a product to even more developers (indies & major studios) a monopoly? We're still GarageGames, and we saw an opportunity to support indies on a major console. This is good news for developers. Pulling up a forum post from 5 years ago just goes to show how much technology changes in 5 years. Think about where you were and what type of computer you were using 5 years ago. That's a long time ago.
#29
Honestly.
WTF.
You've jumped on the "OMG GG has Sold out to the evil empire" bandwagon, without even knowing what is going on and samplign whether or not this is truely a good business decision that not only benefits you, but the other people in this community who have had the odds stacked against them for so long things were looking pretty dammed bad.
There are a lot of things I will hold Jeff to, and I am sure he will hold me to, but some personal comment that he made on a blog is not one of them, especially not when you remember that it was an old post and the context that it was written in needs to be greatly considered.
Logan
08/14/2006 (9:30 pm)
WTF are you talking about David.Honestly.
WTF.
You've jumped on the "OMG GG has Sold out to the evil empire" bandwagon, without even knowing what is going on and samplign whether or not this is truely a good business decision that not only benefits you, but the other people in this community who have had the odds stacked against them for so long things were looking pretty dammed bad.
There are a lot of things I will hold Jeff to, and I am sure he will hold me to, but some personal comment that he made on a blog is not one of them, especially not when you remember that it was an old post and the context that it was written in needs to be greatly considered.
Logan
#30
08/14/2006 (9:31 pm)
Microsoft has changed quite a bit in 5 years. On top of that it's hard to not love what they're doing with XNA and the Xbox 360, it's phenominal for Indies, Hobbyists, and even Commercial studios... a huge jump for the industry in my opinion.
#31
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=49104
I really have no desire to argue on more than on thread at once.
08/14/2006 (9:33 pm)
Go read my post on this thread:http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=49104
I really have no desire to argue on more than on thread at once.
#32
-Andrew
08/14/2006 (9:35 pm)
And it was also about ".net services" such as passport, not the .net platform. For a more recent commentary on what Microsoft is doing right, check out his latest entry on makeitbigingames.com-Andrew
#33
Im going to have to back dave on this one.
as we can all see there is only one reason to move people to .net managed code.
and that reason is to have them within the grasp of ms and not having support for any other solutions.
this is business, simply corner the market and you own it.
with this new power moving as many games and development houses to "Thier" propriety non cross platform
software libraries that are heavily covered in patents.
what you will have in a few years of this they hope will be .net is the only place to get something done.
Judah Himango:
if you can honestly state that to me..
there are many other ways to speed up development that do not involve being managed at the runtime level.
no need to be rude.. I do know what I am talking about.
in fact it is pretty clear this is all business related and nothing to do with best practice for programming.
best practice would be to write better code.
the move to managed code is about os security not development time.
development time is something they want you to believe..
it is honestly bullshit.
sure you can throw up some already written code, and speed up your dev time.
this has been done countless times with many api's (isnt that what an api is?)
but a complex problem is still just that.. needing special attention in any language or api.
so are we talking about the advantage of having someone have all the code written for you?
well again many software packages boast this feature.
managing a process at the runtime checking on the programmer is insane.
and I will always stick to my guns on that one.
sure in the business world it maybe in some cases makes sense.
but where performance matters you generally dont toss it out.
I will not be developing .net managed code untill my work needs me to.
I surely will not spend my personal time with it.
08/14/2006 (9:44 pm)
Umm..Im going to have to back dave on this one.
as we can all see there is only one reason to move people to .net managed code.
and that reason is to have them within the grasp of ms and not having support for any other solutions.
this is business, simply corner the market and you own it.
with this new power moving as many games and development houses to "Thier" propriety non cross platform
software libraries that are heavily covered in patents.
what you will have in a few years of this they hope will be .net is the only place to get something done.
Judah Himango:
if you can honestly state that to me..
Quote:Huh? Insecure services...I'm not so sure you know what you're talking about.
The reason some folks like managed code is because it reduces the invested development time and the complexity of the code required to make a game. Those are good things.
there are many other ways to speed up development that do not involve being managed at the runtime level.
no need to be rude.. I do know what I am talking about.
in fact it is pretty clear this is all business related and nothing to do with best practice for programming.
best practice would be to write better code.
the move to managed code is about os security not development time.
development time is something they want you to believe..
it is honestly bullshit.
sure you can throw up some already written code, and speed up your dev time.
this has been done countless times with many api's (isnt that what an api is?)
but a complex problem is still just that.. needing special attention in any language or api.
so are we talking about the advantage of having someone have all the code written for you?
well again many software packages boast this feature.
managing a process at the runtime checking on the programmer is insane.
and I will always stick to my guns on that one.
sure in the business world it maybe in some cases makes sense.
but where performance matters you generally dont toss it out.
I will not be developing .net managed code untill my work needs me to.
I surely will not spend my personal time with it.
#34
First, you drop support for linux.
Of course, that's not really an issue, because there will be a OSX version of everything... Right?
Seriously guys, you've become a microsoft camp. And microsoft hasn't changed any in 5 years - they haven't released an os in 5 years..
More power to you. I'm just glad I currently have working versions of the engines.
08/14/2006 (9:45 pm)
I really don't have to argue, it's pretty clear what's going on..First, you drop support for linux.
Of course, that's not really an issue, because there will be a OSX version of everything... Right?
Seriously guys, you've become a microsoft camp. And microsoft hasn't changed any in 5 years - they haven't released an os in 5 years..
More power to you. I'm just glad I currently have working versions of the engines.
#35
More power to you. I'm just glad I currently have working versions of the engines."
Wow, I guess Paul S. will be very disapointed that after all his work getting our engines working on OS-X this is what some people truly think of it. In all honesty your false comments really state that you have no value for the work he constantly does.
Your comments are very shortsighted. For some reason your view seems to think the entire company of GarageGames is focused on XNA, there simply is an XNA team that is working on it while the other teams continue to work on what they have been (though I assure you we all are excited about it and the XNA team has been doing awesome). It simply is another platform we are proud and excited to support.
As for support for Linux, we are a company, if a product brings in very little income then we are setting ourselves up for loss. We didn't completely drop it, we just can't garantee support for it... we would be sinking money into it without a return for it, as Indie as we are we still need to survive and always evaluate what we actually can do vs. what we want to do. As far as Jeff's blog, he posed some great questions for Apple. Questions that need to be asked. Just like we had to ask questions about Linux... companies always question their viability in markets, it's how it stays alive. To discredit us for doing such is very rude.
Also to feel that you have the right to say Microsoft hasn't changed in 5 years is very naive. I would assume MS reports all company changes to you on a monthly basis for you to base that info off of?
You are making this into a conspiracy theory, step back and re-evaluate things a bit, what you say is a very narrow perspective of the big picture. GG simply is adding another platform and I personally think that it's a great platform.
08/14/2006 (10:11 pm)
"Seriously guys, you've become a microsoft camp. And microsoft hasn't changed any in 5 years - they haven't released an os in 5 years..More power to you. I'm just glad I currently have working versions of the engines."
Wow, I guess Paul S. will be very disapointed that after all his work getting our engines working on OS-X this is what some people truly think of it. In all honesty your false comments really state that you have no value for the work he constantly does.
Your comments are very shortsighted. For some reason your view seems to think the entire company of GarageGames is focused on XNA, there simply is an XNA team that is working on it while the other teams continue to work on what they have been (though I assure you we all are excited about it and the XNA team has been doing awesome). It simply is another platform we are proud and excited to support.
As for support for Linux, we are a company, if a product brings in very little income then we are setting ourselves up for loss. We didn't completely drop it, we just can't garantee support for it... we would be sinking money into it without a return for it, as Indie as we are we still need to survive and always evaluate what we actually can do vs. what we want to do. As far as Jeff's blog, he posed some great questions for Apple. Questions that need to be asked. Just like we had to ask questions about Linux... companies always question their viability in markets, it's how it stays alive. To discredit us for doing such is very rude.
Also to feel that you have the right to say Microsoft hasn't changed in 5 years is very naive. I would assume MS reports all company changes to you on a monthly basis for you to base that info off of?
You are making this into a conspiracy theory, step back and re-evaluate things a bit, what you say is a very narrow perspective of the big picture. GG simply is adding another platform and I personally think that it's a great platform.
#36
2006 Gamefest Keynote Address
08/14/2006 (10:13 pm)
To get a better view of what MS is trying to do with XNA check out the:2006 Gamefest Keynote Address
#37
08/14/2006 (10:21 pm)
I am thinking of making a TDN article on conspiracy theories and markets. Sure, it wouldn't help many people, but it would be as beneficial as forum posts...but being a wiki, we could all edit each others comments and make us sound even crazier than we already are! Ah interweb! 
#38
Who wins with that MS move? MS! Why? Bigger profits from XBox Arcade subscriptions and additional profits from "those lame" developers releasing their games for free...
08/14/2006 (10:36 pm)
All that is to drive Java away, and giving "free" oportunity for indies to release their games for FREE (notice the way I wrote it) - it's just a way to get bigger slice of the monopoly ;)Who wins with that MS move? MS! Why? Bigger profits from XBox Arcade subscriptions and additional profits from "those lame" developers releasing their games for free...
#39
How many mac developers do you have? 1
How many windows developers do you have?
As for linux support - who do you think supplies the changes to make that happen?
How long before the money you'll no doubt be making from this new microsoft deal outweigh the 35% of current mac based revenue? How long until mac support becomes "we just can't garantee support for it"?
>Paul S. will be very disapointed that after all his work getting our engines
I never said anything bad about OSX builds as they're the only core changes being accepted to make linux run. I just wonder how disapointed Paul S. will be when the word comes down to start working on a windows project or go home.
>I would assume MS reports all company changes to you on a monthly basis for you to base that info off of?
I assume they send you these reports?
Seriously, I'm not getting into the whole linux vs the world. Like I said, I'm glad I currently have working,compiling, cross-platform engines to work with.
>To get a more educated view of what MS is trying to do with XNA
No doubt Chris Satchell will have that unbiased opinion about game development.
After a few weeks, all this mess will die down and everything will be "business as usual". I'm just here to let you guys know not all of us like the direction GG has taken here.
08/14/2006 (10:37 pm)
@Matthew: How many mac developers do you have? 1
How many windows developers do you have?
As for linux support - who do you think supplies the changes to make that happen?
How long before the money you'll no doubt be making from this new microsoft deal outweigh the 35% of current mac based revenue? How long until mac support becomes "we just can't garantee support for it"?
>Paul S. will be very disapointed that after all his work getting our engines
I never said anything bad about OSX builds as they're the only core changes being accepted to make linux run. I just wonder how disapointed Paul S. will be when the word comes down to start working on a windows project or go home.
>I would assume MS reports all company changes to you on a monthly basis for you to base that info off of?
I assume they send you these reports?
Seriously, I'm not getting into the whole linux vs the world. Like I said, I'm glad I currently have working,compiling, cross-platform engines to work with.
>To get a more educated view of what MS is trying to do with XNA
No doubt Chris Satchell will have that unbiased opinion about game development.
After a few weeks, all this mess will die down and everything will be "business as usual". I'm just here to let you guys know not all of us like the direction GG has taken here.
#40
08/14/2006 (10:38 pm)
C'mon, Sun - release Java sources while it's not TOO late ;)
Torque Owner Judah Himango
That isn't a slam against native C/C++ by any means. C++ has its use, it's clear, and is going to be faster than managed code, of course. It's a tradeoff. For myself as a hobbyist game dev who's dabbled in a number of engines including Torque, I'm personally willing to some performance in order to have less complex software.
I think it was Da Vinci who said, "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." I think that holds true for software development: simplicity should be preferred to performance gains in *most* cases. If that weren't true, we'd still be programming every piece of our software titles with machine code, ASM, or even C. But we traded those in for less complexity and more abstractions -- easier development -- long ago. With that in mind, it would be hypocritical to say the same leap doesn't apply to the native to managed transition.
Obviously, the ideal is that we sacrifice no performance and gain simplicity, but that is not always technologically possible. Same goes for security and performance, but that is another topic...
Again, I'm *really* looking forward to this. :-) Can't wait to see what you guys have cooked up. :-)