Intrest in a GG sponsored MMOKit.
by Flybynight Studios · in Torque Game Engine · 08/26/2008 (4:46 pm) · 146 replies
I want to thank you guys for stepping up in the last thread thanks, appreciate the clarifications. I think it is clear that a lot of folks, myself included are very interested in seeing a kit that is actually viable for using in a production environment. The 2 kits that have been attempted outside of the GG domain had pros and cons in their own right but as inevitably happens in the indie world, the original creators either 'A' lose intrest or 'B' "take their toys and go home". (IE lock down all the hard work that people donate to the project and walk away).
In my opinion, for what it's worth, a GG sponsored MMOKit would be a fantastic addition to the GG family of products because it would promote a stable and controlled environment for indies to casually build their MMO projects and know that as long as GG is around they can always come back to their work. GG benefits be providing all of their licensed product holders access to any tools they need and colateral sales for products used in these ventures like model kits and developer tools goes up because develoeprs have the confidence in GG that they may not have in other groups.
I am posting this because it was mentioned in the previous thread that GG might be intrested in sponsoring something like this if there was intrest in the community. I dare say there -is- intrest in the community and I know that some people have already done some fantastic work in a TGEA fork of an MMOKit.
My hope is that by centering an MMOKit around GG we can bring developers together in their work rather than segment the community and lose hundreds and thousands of hours of work everytime a new kit comes and goes.
I would invite all of the other people intrested in such a kit to please post their thoughts here and see if there is enough intrest to sway GG into giving us a safer development environment here at the GG site.
My thanks in advance for everyones time in reading and responding to this.
In my opinion, for what it's worth, a GG sponsored MMOKit would be a fantastic addition to the GG family of products because it would promote a stable and controlled environment for indies to casually build their MMO projects and know that as long as GG is around they can always come back to their work. GG benefits be providing all of their licensed product holders access to any tools they need and colateral sales for products used in these ventures like model kits and developer tools goes up because develoeprs have the confidence in GG that they may not have in other groups.
I am posting this because it was mentioned in the previous thread that GG might be intrested in sponsoring something like this if there was intrest in the community. I dare say there -is- intrest in the community and I know that some people have already done some fantastic work in a TGEA fork of an MMOKit.
My hope is that by centering an MMOKit around GG we can bring developers together in their work rather than segment the community and lose hundreds and thousands of hours of work everytime a new kit comes and goes.
I would invite all of the other people intrested in such a kit to please post their thoughts here and see if there is enough intrest to sway GG into giving us a safer development environment here at the GG site.
My thanks in advance for everyones time in reading and responding to this.
#82
I'd suggest get a small team (steering community of sorts) started to discuss the requirements on the project and then get those broken down into individual areas ( networking coding/configuration, Client interaction (between server/client and client game engine(TGE/TGEA/or other), etc...
Once the core discussion group has mapped out the basic's of the project each member then would take the lead role each sub-group and recuit other developer for that part of the project and report back to the main core group with progress reports. I'd go to the point of saying one person shouldbe the key contact and head of the project, he/she would have mainly a role of project manager, keeping things on track and also not just communicating between sub-groups, but also with GG and the community as a whole, thus very little hands-on development.
09/06/2008 (1:03 am)
Edwards idea is the best plan of attack on a project like this.I'd suggest get a small team (steering community of sorts) started to discuss the requirements on the project and then get those broken down into individual areas ( networking coding/configuration, Client interaction (between server/client and client game engine(TGE/TGEA/or other), etc...
Once the core discussion group has mapped out the basic's of the project each member then would take the lead role each sub-group and recuit other developer for that part of the project and report back to the main core group with progress reports. I'd go to the point of saying one person shouldbe the key contact and head of the project, he/she would have mainly a role of project manager, keeping things on track and also not just communicating between sub-groups, but also with GG and the community as a whole, thus very little hands-on development.
#83
Personally I wouldn't rule out another python based kit or fixing any elements people feel aren't right in the current kit (although licensing issues may put a halt on that one) - right now lets not rule out anything. First steps are to get some names to investigate what we want to achieve and from their you can take of view of what we have, who we have and what is achieveable.
Experience tells me people are great when it comes to talking on things but few people actually then put their hands up to get involved and actually do something so can those that are willing to actually commit and work on these first steps please put themselves forward here... I'll go first and say I'll get involved although I am working on my own game project so this wouldn't be a fulltime project for me.
09/06/2008 (12:45 pm)
Scott - thanks for the reply I was wondering whether that was going to be one of the pitfalls, it's a tough thing to manage on any project but I imagine it's a nightmare on a community project like Realm Wars... yikes!!Personally I wouldn't rule out another python based kit or fixing any elements people feel aren't right in the current kit (although licensing issues may put a halt on that one) - right now lets not rule out anything. First steps are to get some names to investigate what we want to achieve and from their you can take of view of what we have, who we have and what is achieveable.
Experience tells me people are great when it comes to talking on things but few people actually then put their hands up to get involved and actually do something so can those that are willing to actually commit and work on these first steps please put themselves forward here... I'll go first and say I'll get involved although I am working on my own game project so this wouldn't be a fulltime project for me.
#84
Concerning concerns on how long this server will be maintain; it will be maintain at least few years ;-)
09/08/2008 (10:15 am)
If it can help, you can use the new server we just set-up for our indie group on gforge.indieserver.com to host this project. Just drop me an email before so I will authorize your project.Concerning concerns on how long this server will be maintain; it will be maintain at least few years ;-)
#85
09/08/2008 (9:14 pm)
Thanks Frank, I've a couple of servers too that can be used to host anything too but obviously ensuring that backups of any repository will help to ensure any codebase doesn't vanish if anyones site disappears.
#86
09/08/2008 (11:34 pm)
@andy: yes
#87
So many discussions fail and die at this exact point so I'm hardly surprised, Matt Fairfax hit the nail squarely on the head when he said:
Hats off to those like Josh and his MMOKit, Jeff Faust for AFX, the guys with their Combat Starter Kit and any others that have actually finished a project like this. To all those that make their comments, complain about existing kits, make remarks about GG and what they should do - I have one comment for you:
If things aren't to your liking get off your arse and actually do something about it, you have the power to change things and if you can't be bothered to do that then quit complaining about those that do.
09/10/2008 (10:33 am)
Is it just me or has the discussion gone eerily quiet since I've asked people to move on from talking about things to actually doing something about it and forming as a team???So many discussions fail and die at this exact point so I'm hardly surprised, Matt Fairfax hit the nail squarely on the head when he said:
Quote:
There have been a lot of cool projects talked about and started over the years that never resulted in anything and we need to be careful to not spend too much time on a project like this too early
Hats off to those like Josh and his MMOKit, Jeff Faust for AFX, the guys with their Combat Starter Kit and any others that have actually finished a project like this. To all those that make their comments, complain about existing kits, make remarks about GG and what they should do - I have one comment for you:
If things aren't to your liking get off your arse and actually do something about it, you have the power to change things and if you can't be bothered to do that then quit complaining about those that do.
#88
Many kits exist already in varying degrees of completion. The MMOWorkshop kit is hands down the most complete and powerful of the kits out there for Torque. Unfortuantely without source code the kit is useless for anything other than a teaching tool. What that kit does have though is the 1.5.2 alpha release which the c++ extensions are available for here at the GG site.
Creating yet another MMOKit project that is managed externaly and then dies is completely counter productive to the original post in my opinion. Im not saying peoepl shouldnt start an MMOKit just that it has absolutely no purpose in fulfilling the querry I had in the original post.
What happens when the "new" MMOKit folks decide they want to close it up? Sell source changes? Let the domain lapse? Stop supporting the SVN server?
What happens when the first little ego battle happens and someone "takes their toys and goes home"?
The MMOWorkshop kit is a great foundation for an MMOKit but what is the point to start yet another third party site where 6 months from now we are all in the same boat?
I am not pooing on the idea of you or others starting an MMOKit. Good on you for doing it. But don't get all uppity on me or others here for not jumping on your idea because the simple fact is it's all been done before and the results of these 3rd party kits are all over the place. Look at the DG "kit".. No offense to Dave or anything but here we are in month 18 of their 12 month $10k game contest and no sign of any judging, no sign of any kit, no sign of any $10k. Look at the MMOWorkshop kit... Untill 2 weeks ago the website was down for weeks at a time. Months now since the MMOWorkshop C++ patch was ready and repeated efforts to contact PG for -ANY- kind of information regarding the status of the source or even the continued viability of the MMOWorkshop have fallen compeltely on deaf ears.
Matt's response here that you quote is exactly why abunch of people -aren't- jumping on the bandwagon and doing something.. You need a plan. A plan that has merit and potential. A plan that can at least have the potential to provide a good possability for people to continue development of their project should the main organizers take a leave of absence.
What are you proposing? Setting up an SVN? Great, how do you control who gets access to it? How do you control what should be a part of the "Core" of the kit and what should be optional addons? How do you confirm GG licensing for people who want SVN access?
Getting a bunch of people together and tossing TGE into an SVN where any tom dick or harry can download it is hardly the solution GG or any reasonably organized development project would want to see.
If your comments were directed at people like myself and others posting here to get off their asses and do something my response is that I am most certainly "doing something" but without a concrete plan that is viable and -legal- I have no intention of taking on the responsability of housing GG source code and being responsible for where it goes. Believe me, if there was a simple way to do this I would love to hear your insight on it. I fail to see how starting YAMMOK would have any possability of doing anything good for the community. if I am not able to commit to providing it for the next several years. At this time I am a hobbiest game developer and have no intention of becoming a kit developer. It is well outside of my skillset and competance as a c++ programmer.
When I come up with a better solution please be rest assured I will post it.
09/10/2008 (5:18 pm)
Instead of telling people to get off their ass and do stuff andy you might want to look at the original purpose of this thread. :) It was to discuss the potential of a -centralized- MMOKit here at GG so as to ensure the prolific availability of the kit to people for many years to come. Many kits exist already in varying degrees of completion. The MMOWorkshop kit is hands down the most complete and powerful of the kits out there for Torque. Unfortuantely without source code the kit is useless for anything other than a teaching tool. What that kit does have though is the 1.5.2 alpha release which the c++ extensions are available for here at the GG site.
Creating yet another MMOKit project that is managed externaly and then dies is completely counter productive to the original post in my opinion. Im not saying peoepl shouldnt start an MMOKit just that it has absolutely no purpose in fulfilling the querry I had in the original post.
What happens when the "new" MMOKit folks decide they want to close it up? Sell source changes? Let the domain lapse? Stop supporting the SVN server?
What happens when the first little ego battle happens and someone "takes their toys and goes home"?
The MMOWorkshop kit is a great foundation for an MMOKit but what is the point to start yet another third party site where 6 months from now we are all in the same boat?
I am not pooing on the idea of you or others starting an MMOKit. Good on you for doing it. But don't get all uppity on me or others here for not jumping on your idea because the simple fact is it's all been done before and the results of these 3rd party kits are all over the place. Look at the DG "kit".. No offense to Dave or anything but here we are in month 18 of their 12 month $10k game contest and no sign of any judging, no sign of any kit, no sign of any $10k. Look at the MMOWorkshop kit... Untill 2 weeks ago the website was down for weeks at a time. Months now since the MMOWorkshop C++ patch was ready and repeated efforts to contact PG for -ANY- kind of information regarding the status of the source or even the continued viability of the MMOWorkshop have fallen compeltely on deaf ears.
Matt's response here that you quote is exactly why abunch of people -aren't- jumping on the bandwagon and doing something.. You need a plan. A plan that has merit and potential. A plan that can at least have the potential to provide a good possability for people to continue development of their project should the main organizers take a leave of absence.
What are you proposing? Setting up an SVN? Great, how do you control who gets access to it? How do you control what should be a part of the "Core" of the kit and what should be optional addons? How do you confirm GG licensing for people who want SVN access?
Getting a bunch of people together and tossing TGE into an SVN where any tom dick or harry can download it is hardly the solution GG or any reasonably organized development project would want to see.
If your comments were directed at people like myself and others posting here to get off their asses and do something my response is that I am most certainly "doing something" but without a concrete plan that is viable and -legal- I have no intention of taking on the responsability of housing GG source code and being responsible for where it goes. Believe me, if there was a simple way to do this I would love to hear your insight on it. I fail to see how starting YAMMOK would have any possability of doing anything good for the community. if I am not able to commit to providing it for the next several years. At this time I am a hobbiest game developer and have no intention of becoming a kit developer. It is well outside of my skillset and competance as a c++ programmer.
When I come up with a better solution please be rest assured I will post it.
#89
Have a website that -is- third party since GG is (understandably) wanting to wait and see how something like a GGMMOKit would proceed. Have a forum at the website (that could be setup here at GG if the project gained momentum and was deemed to be viable) used for discussion and requests. Have a dedicated forum here at GG for the MMOKit but only C++ extensions would be posted there for the "official" updates to the kit. All discussion and so forth for the kit would be in a different forum so that the C++ extension forum would be easily useable when trying to merge with your projects source. This would allow GG to set licensing restrictions on viewing teh forum to stop people pirating the code and keep teh GG overhead and involvement to a minimum while still maintaining all source changes for the kit here at GG incase the project leads decide to take a hiatus.
The down sides to this plan?
- People using the project must be competant enough with C++ to merge the extensions. Granted this is a pretty weak con as trying to design an MMO without this kind of basic C++ knowledge is pretty weak but.. still.
- Alot of discussion and help from the external website would be lost forever if the site ever disappeared. I am testing some stuff on wiki development right now to see if it would be viable to just run a kit wiki. I am looking to incorporate some kind of changelog for the wiki incase someone gets stupid and deletes a bunch of stuff.
those are just some thoughts I am working on at the moment. Untill I come up with a 100% complete plan I am not goign to waste GGs time with yet another mmokit idea :)
09/10/2008 (5:33 pm)
Just some things I have been tossing around that are possible ways of doing this:Have a website that -is- third party since GG is (understandably) wanting to wait and see how something like a GGMMOKit would proceed. Have a forum at the website (that could be setup here at GG if the project gained momentum and was deemed to be viable) used for discussion and requests. Have a dedicated forum here at GG for the MMOKit but only C++ extensions would be posted there for the "official" updates to the kit. All discussion and so forth for the kit would be in a different forum so that the C++ extension forum would be easily useable when trying to merge with your projects source. This would allow GG to set licensing restrictions on viewing teh forum to stop people pirating the code and keep teh GG overhead and involvement to a minimum while still maintaining all source changes for the kit here at GG incase the project leads decide to take a hiatus.
The down sides to this plan?
- People using the project must be competant enough with C++ to merge the extensions. Granted this is a pretty weak con as trying to design an MMO without this kind of basic C++ knowledge is pretty weak but.. still.
- Alot of discussion and help from the external website would be lost forever if the site ever disappeared. I am testing some stuff on wiki development right now to see if it would be viable to just run a kit wiki. I am looking to incorporate some kind of changelog for the wiki incase someone gets stupid and deletes a bunch of stuff.
those are just some thoughts I am working on at the moment. Untill I come up with a 100% complete plan I am not goign to waste GGs time with yet another mmokit idea :)
#90
09/10/2008 (7:10 pm)
@Flybynight Studios: Could this project maybe take over Realm Wars? That project seemed to already have some of your ideas implemented. I, however, don't want to step on any toes. Because I'm unsure on how many people still work on it, if any. 
#91
09/10/2008 (7:14 pm)
@Flybynight, personally, I think the reasoning that nothing should be done until GG does something for you all is going to kill this from happening even more easily than merely discussing what should be done endlessly (or the problems with a "third party" effort you raised, for that matter).
#92
I have never, anywhere in this thread, asked GG to "Make me an MMOKit". Infact, several times in this thread I have stated that no one should expect GG to make an MMOKIT. What I was asking is what kind of logistics would be involved and what kind of resources at GG could we expect for a GG sponsored kit. Sponsorship can mean alot of different things and it probably wasnt the best word for me to choose in this circumstance but again, let me try and break down what I was envisioning..
Having GG somehow manage the C++ extensions for an MMOKit would mean those extensions will be around for as long as the Torque engine itself. This means that no one, myself, or any other community member could decide one day to kaibosh the whole kit and leave hundreds of community users out thousands of manhours of work. This was and still is my primary consideration for a kit. It gives GG control over licensing and stops any individual from destroying thousands of hours of work.
What GG responded to in this regard was that they have to be very cautious in "sponsoring" or condoning an MMOKit because of the very nature of them. Everyone has different ideas of what a kit should entail (As this very thread is a prime example of) and who is going to support it? Can you imagine how many thousands of extra emails a month GG staffers would get from folks running the kit for the first time after -not- reading the documentation and demanding GG fix the kit and "make their game" for them?
After exchanging a couple of emails with GG folks I am attempting to come up with a more viable plan that still maintains my primary objective as I laid out above. It needs to minimalize the GG involvement, maintain a controled distrobution of C++ extensions for maintainging the licenses and also (hopefully) encompass more input directly from the GG community here.
If someone wants to start up their own MMOKit I am not against that. I am not going to initialy be involved in it because I have seen how even projects with the best of intentions can go astray. Unless someone can lay down a better plan that somehow addresses the obvious licensing concerns of Torque source-code and how the project could be maintained in a way that the community couldnt be locked out down the road I see little point in starting up yet another kit. That's just me though.
This thread accomplished it's purpose for me. It showed GG there is obvious intrest in the community for this, it opened some doors of communication at GG to get some insight as to what they would require for a GG "sanctioned" (Yeah thats a better word :) ) kit and gave me some goals for coming up with a more viable plan to approach GG with to accomplish these things.
Don't let my own personal goals stop you or anyone else though from making thier own MMOKit. I just don't appreciate being told to get off my ass and do something when I'm certainly alot further along "doing something" than the person doing the yelling.
@Brit: The realmwars project is dead. The last public fork of the code is from 2002 or 2003 if I recall and since the code was closed off it was no longer a community project and the actual IP of someone. (I cant recall who was handling it when it petered out).
Aside from that, RW really wasnt much of an MMO base. It was simply a multiplayer PVP arena game. It didnt have any kind of database backend, master server, zone server, world server setup or any kind of quest, advancement backend at all. Really it was just a dressed up demo of Torque 1.2xx Dont get me wrong, in it's day it was a great project because it allowed the community to all work together on something but just like the DG "kit" and the MMOWorkshop, once the principles move on or lose intrest the viability of the kit/project is zero. If RW was a GG sanctioned project it would still be around today and who knows.. maybe it would've modded it's way into the GGMMOkit of the future :)
09/10/2008 (7:39 pm)
@Ross: While I think I agree with the premise of your thought Ross I don't see how laying out a plan of attack is somehow equating to "nothing should be done until GG does something for you"? If someone wants to start an MMOKit they should do that. What I had envisioned when I wrote this thread and what I am still working on is how to best utilize the GG community to centralize an MMOKit here at GG so as to avoid the pitfalls of all of the past MMOKits. If you can't learn from the mistakes of others you are bound to repeat them right?I have never, anywhere in this thread, asked GG to "Make me an MMOKit". Infact, several times in this thread I have stated that no one should expect GG to make an MMOKIT. What I was asking is what kind of logistics would be involved and what kind of resources at GG could we expect for a GG sponsored kit. Sponsorship can mean alot of different things and it probably wasnt the best word for me to choose in this circumstance but again, let me try and break down what I was envisioning..
Having GG somehow manage the C++ extensions for an MMOKit would mean those extensions will be around for as long as the Torque engine itself. This means that no one, myself, or any other community member could decide one day to kaibosh the whole kit and leave hundreds of community users out thousands of manhours of work. This was and still is my primary consideration for a kit. It gives GG control over licensing and stops any individual from destroying thousands of hours of work.
What GG responded to in this regard was that they have to be very cautious in "sponsoring" or condoning an MMOKit because of the very nature of them. Everyone has different ideas of what a kit should entail (As this very thread is a prime example of) and who is going to support it? Can you imagine how many thousands of extra emails a month GG staffers would get from folks running the kit for the first time after -not- reading the documentation and demanding GG fix the kit and "make their game" for them?
After exchanging a couple of emails with GG folks I am attempting to come up with a more viable plan that still maintains my primary objective as I laid out above. It needs to minimalize the GG involvement, maintain a controled distrobution of C++ extensions for maintainging the licenses and also (hopefully) encompass more input directly from the GG community here.
If someone wants to start up their own MMOKit I am not against that. I am not going to initialy be involved in it because I have seen how even projects with the best of intentions can go astray. Unless someone can lay down a better plan that somehow addresses the obvious licensing concerns of Torque source-code and how the project could be maintained in a way that the community couldnt be locked out down the road I see little point in starting up yet another kit. That's just me though.
This thread accomplished it's purpose for me. It showed GG there is obvious intrest in the community for this, it opened some doors of communication at GG to get some insight as to what they would require for a GG "sanctioned" (Yeah thats a better word :) ) kit and gave me some goals for coming up with a more viable plan to approach GG with to accomplish these things.
Don't let my own personal goals stop you or anyone else though from making thier own MMOKit. I just don't appreciate being told to get off my ass and do something when I'm certainly alot further along "doing something" than the person doing the yelling.
@Brit: The realmwars project is dead. The last public fork of the code is from 2002 or 2003 if I recall and since the code was closed off it was no longer a community project and the actual IP of someone. (I cant recall who was handling it when it petered out).
Aside from that, RW really wasnt much of an MMO base. It was simply a multiplayer PVP arena game. It didnt have any kind of database backend, master server, zone server, world server setup or any kind of quest, advancement backend at all. Really it was just a dressed up demo of Torque 1.2xx Dont get me wrong, in it's day it was a great project because it allowed the community to all work together on something but just like the DG "kit" and the MMOWorkshop, once the principles move on or lose intrest the viability of the kit/project is zero. If RW was a GG sanctioned project it would still be around today and who knows.. maybe it would've modded it's way into the GGMMOkit of the future :)
#93
09/10/2008 (8:16 pm)
@Flybynight, yeah, I know no one said "GG make us a kit" here. That's not my point. I still think that waiting around for GG to "sponsor" this is just going to mean nothing ever gets done, above and beyond any other problems. If you want to do it and have it "centralized" here, then make a thread in one of the private forums and use that to communicate until GG has an auth setup that would allow a third party site to authenticate. If you're worried about there being only a single SVN setup, then host backups. *shrug* I just don't see waiting for GG to manage this whole thing as being conductive to getting anything done, since they've got other things on their plate. I doubt any of the GG employees have time to manage anyone's project while also doing whatever else they have to work on. If you're waiting on that, you're going to end up waiting indefinitely, and even if not, you're still wasting time you could set up something right now. Even if that means you have people post in a thread for read access to an SVN.
#94
It's a big stickler for me. GG has never come after a member of the Torque community for legal damages regarding code distribution (even in some very questionable cases in the past) but I wouldnt want to be responsible for handling an SVN of GG IP without some very clear licensing controls. Those controls would have to be approved by GG in writing in order to avoid legal issues down the road.
Just firing up an SVN IMO and giving out access isnt the answer. Sorry Im not meaning to be obstinant. I appreciate your point that things can be planned ad-nausium, but I cant see a clear first step without having some kind of license management arangement with GG.
This is where we end up back at our current situation with C++ extensions being posted in a GG forum somewhere. I know that system works but the kit needs an arse load of docs and a system for managing them. I like the wiki system with a forum for discussion. I'm still working on a more "complete" project solution but Im open to hearing any ideas you have for managing SVN access within the GG licensing :) I may be missing the obvious here. If I am please show me.
09/10/2008 (8:34 pm)
No you are absolutely right about waiting around Ross. No point in it but what is the next step? To just setup an SVN? Let's start with that. Who is going to be responsible for handling the Torque ownership licensing and how will that work?It's a big stickler for me. GG has never come after a member of the Torque community for legal damages regarding code distribution (even in some very questionable cases in the past) but I wouldnt want to be responsible for handling an SVN of GG IP without some very clear licensing controls. Those controls would have to be approved by GG in writing in order to avoid legal issues down the road.
Just firing up an SVN IMO and giving out access isnt the answer. Sorry Im not meaning to be obstinant. I appreciate your point that things can be planned ad-nausium, but I cant see a clear first step without having some kind of license management arangement with GG.
This is where we end up back at our current situation with C++ extensions being posted in a GG forum somewhere. I know that system works but the kit needs an arse load of docs and a system for managing them. I like the wiki system with a forum for discussion. I'm still working on a more "complete" project solution but Im open to hearing any ideas you have for managing SVN access within the GG licensing :) I may be missing the obvious here. If I am please show me.
#95
Nothing to do with setting up SVN and jumping straight into development, theres a hell of a lot of ground work that needs doing even before you reach that stage and begin to touch any code, so thats why I asked people to put themselves forward if they'd be prepared to work on a kit and it fell to silence!
We've been offered advice from GG on how to proceed with it and their advice is to proceed with a third party solution - I really don't mean it as inflamitory but you seem to be stuck on the issue that it can't be done without it being hosted by GG. We know that's not going to happen right now so can we not just look at alternatives?
An easy way to confirm people are licensed is to just create a thread in the Private forums and get people to post in there to prove they have bought the product (several products have already used this approach).
As for security - How do you think any team working on a game or kit does it? SVN has built in security to control all of that so you're really in no worse a security position than any current team out there developing a game. You can work through any of these issues but you need to first get people involved and that's where I am afraid it's been rather lacking so far.
The difference between a community version even hosted off-site is the matter of ownership of the codebase, the current MMOKit can't be fixed becaused legally we don't own the rights to create a fork.... if the codebase is community "owned" then it really matters little where it's hosted just that there is always a working repository up and running.
There are ways around everything whilst staying within the remit of your license, if you can figure out most things and still get stuck on one or two items we can't think of a solution for then I am sure GG would be more than happy to offer advice on how we can approach things or do something special outside of the license with agreement from them.
I'll stress it again though the first step is to get a team together to put some ideas down and that is where you did go quiet along with everyone else.
09/11/2008 (1:14 am)
Flybynight - I posted my thoughts on a process and if you read it then my first steps were:Quote:
Define
- Team Building - get together a group to start in depth discussions on features, design, etc.
- Ideas & Fact Finding - What actually would the kit include? what would help? how might we approach?
- Scope Definition - what's the goal of this project? what do we need to know?
- Solution outline
- Project Proposal to discuss and gain feedback on from GG if possible.
Nothing to do with setting up SVN and jumping straight into development, theres a hell of a lot of ground work that needs doing even before you reach that stage and begin to touch any code, so thats why I asked people to put themselves forward if they'd be prepared to work on a kit and it fell to silence!
We've been offered advice from GG on how to proceed with it and their advice is to proceed with a third party solution - I really don't mean it as inflamitory but you seem to be stuck on the issue that it can't be done without it being hosted by GG. We know that's not going to happen right now so can we not just look at alternatives?
An easy way to confirm people are licensed is to just create a thread in the Private forums and get people to post in there to prove they have bought the product (several products have already used this approach).
As for security - How do you think any team working on a game or kit does it? SVN has built in security to control all of that so you're really in no worse a security position than any current team out there developing a game. You can work through any of these issues but you need to first get people involved and that's where I am afraid it's been rather lacking so far.
The difference between a community version even hosted off-site is the matter of ownership of the codebase, the current MMOKit can't be fixed becaused legally we don't own the rights to create a fork.... if the codebase is community "owned" then it really matters little where it's hosted just that there is always a working repository up and running.
There are ways around everything whilst staying within the remit of your license, if you can figure out most things and still get stuck on one or two items we can't think of a solution for then I am sure GG would be more than happy to offer advice on how we can approach things or do something special outside of the license with agreement from them.
I'll stress it again though the first step is to get a team together to put some ideas down and that is where you did go quiet along with everyone else.
#96
Just been reading through a few other groups I belong too, and noticed something I missed from late last month.
This could be a possible answer to our problems of a MMOKit. The MMO engine was one of the two on the top of my list a while ago, but pricing on this (@ $59k+) and another ($1mil + 5% royolites) one that fitted what I was looking into at the time.
The following below message is what I received, please have a read, I'm interested what you all think and be interested in what GG has to say about this product/software interacting with TGE/A. I'll be looking into this possible solution and hopefully contact an old contact of mine about this product.
Ideally I'd like to use TGE/A as the client side app, and NeL as the background workhorse. But it'll be a situation of looking at the legal side of thing and the programming interfacing side too.
Ryzom is opening a new website for its Free Software NeL 3D MMORPG engine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are very glad to announce that we have now opened a new website for NeL, our core 3D MMORPG engine technology, at dev.ryzom.com.
We know that many of our players are developers or otherwise interested in opensource affairs, and this news will be especially interesting for them. If you're not interested in such things then don't worry if you don't understand some of the things you read in this post as it is for developers and they are used to this.
To summarize, NeL is a C++ programming framework at the very foundation of Ryzom; NeL contains the 3D Engine, the Networking Engine, the Sound Engine, and much more that is at heart of our MMORPG Ryzom. NeL is multi-platform and works on Windows, Linux, and Mac.
NeL is under the GNU GPL, because we strongly believe in the "Free Software" philosophy which governs this License. In a few words, this basically means that everyone in the world can access NeL's source code, modify it, create new things based on it and release it freely.
We are the first and only commercial MMORPG to provide the source code of the core foundation of it's game and we are very proud of that.
We intend to support all of the new NeL community by giving it as much time as we can alongside our game, Ryzom, in order to create a strong community of developers. As the first step in this direction, our whole new website dedicated to NeL : http://dev.ryzom.com contains everything that's needed for new developers; a forum, a wiki, an issue tracker, a doxygen, a repository browser, and a lot more besides. Our new CTO Vianney Lecroart will be directly in charge of NeL and can be directly contacted regarding NeL on vl@ryzom.com if needed.
If you are a developer and have any interest in NeL in general or in our 3D MMORPG engine specifically, please feel free to join our community at dev.ryzom.com. Your second stop after this new website should be the IRC channel; you can find it at #nel on irc.freenode.net where you will be able to express yourself.
But before you 'get stuck in', if you don't know our game and our 3D engine and want to test and see it running, you can download a FREE Ryzom client here, and you can also easily create a FREE Ryzom account to access our game on this page (Hurry up, no credit card required for the moment Wink).
The NeL community is waiting for you; you are all most welcome...
The Ryzom Developer Team
09/11/2008 (3:11 am)
As to comments about some of us not saying anything for a little while, some of us have other things to do, but this is one thing I was looking into.Just been reading through a few other groups I belong too, and noticed something I missed from late last month.
This could be a possible answer to our problems of a MMOKit. The MMO engine was one of the two on the top of my list a while ago, but pricing on this (@ $59k+) and another ($1mil + 5% royolites) one that fitted what I was looking into at the time.
The following below message is what I received, please have a read, I'm interested what you all think and be interested in what GG has to say about this product/software interacting with TGE/A. I'll be looking into this possible solution and hopefully contact an old contact of mine about this product.
Ideally I'd like to use TGE/A as the client side app, and NeL as the background workhorse. But it'll be a situation of looking at the legal side of thing and the programming interfacing side too.
Ryzom is opening a new website for its Free Software NeL 3D MMORPG engine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are very glad to announce that we have now opened a new website for NeL, our core 3D MMORPG engine technology, at dev.ryzom.com.
We know that many of our players are developers or otherwise interested in opensource affairs, and this news will be especially interesting for them. If you're not interested in such things then don't worry if you don't understand some of the things you read in this post as it is for developers and they are used to this.
To summarize, NeL is a C++ programming framework at the very foundation of Ryzom; NeL contains the 3D Engine, the Networking Engine, the Sound Engine, and much more that is at heart of our MMORPG Ryzom. NeL is multi-platform and works on Windows, Linux, and Mac.
NeL is under the GNU GPL, because we strongly believe in the "Free Software" philosophy which governs this License. In a few words, this basically means that everyone in the world can access NeL's source code, modify it, create new things based on it and release it freely.
We are the first and only commercial MMORPG to provide the source code of the core foundation of it's game and we are very proud of that.
We intend to support all of the new NeL community by giving it as much time as we can alongside our game, Ryzom, in order to create a strong community of developers. As the first step in this direction, our whole new website dedicated to NeL : http://dev.ryzom.com contains everything that's needed for new developers; a forum, a wiki, an issue tracker, a doxygen, a repository browser, and a lot more besides. Our new CTO Vianney Lecroart will be directly in charge of NeL and can be directly contacted regarding NeL on vl@ryzom.com if needed.
If you are a developer and have any interest in NeL in general or in our 3D MMORPG engine specifically, please feel free to join our community at dev.ryzom.com. Your second stop after this new website should be the IRC channel; you can find it at #nel on irc.freenode.net where you will be able to express yourself.
But before you 'get stuck in', if you don't know our game and our 3D engine and want to test and see it running, you can download a FREE Ryzom client here, and you can also easily create a FREE Ryzom account to access our game on this page (Hurry up, no credit card required for the moment Wink).
The NeL community is waiting for you; you are all most welcome...
The Ryzom Developer Team
#97
The NeL engine has some plusses and minuses but IMO it wasnt even capable of holding a candle to Torque. (Even just plain jane TGE beats it out) I would be hard pressed to recall the specifics of the problems we were having but one thing I can tell you right now.. NeL has zero community support. If you develop in NeL you are basically on your own. The only people that seem knowledgeable with it (This was back a couple years ago at least) dont speak english and were extremely difficult to communicate with (Even when you make an exceptional effort to do so). At the time I worked with it NeL used 3DSMax exlusively for modelling. Perhaps they have re-written their mesh/ rendering layers I dont know.
There is also a slight bit of confusion as to who owns the NeL technology. Ryzom has been bought and sold at least twice since release. The basecode for NeL is supposed to be opensource. (Although I am not sure what flavour of open source) ryzom as a game failed miseably. Wether that was due to technical deificiencies or design ignorance I am not sure. For the life of me I cant even recall the playing the game although I did twice :) From what I do rememebr it annoyed me so badly in the first 5 minutes each time I played it that I swore I would never play it again.
Still, it's an alternative. if people want an MMO engine to compare to Nel is that.. Dont kid yourself though. NeL is no MMOKit. Not by a long bloody shot :) It's all raw source. You need a hell of a lot of cahones and some very significant programming knowledge to even get the engine to fireup. And as of the last time I Was involved with NeL it only ran on Linux based systems. Not a bad thing in and of itself but I gave up trying to dev on linux a long time ago. Not because it's not a better O/S than windows (Because it is by a power of 10 or more) but supporting *nix in a production enviro is just not something I am personally cpable of. And overall support for *nix is harder to find and get even in my hometown of over a million people. (And Im in the IT Business go figure).
If NeL is matured since my forray into it feel free to rebutt my points of contention :)
@Andy: Im sorry if I misunderstood you Andy but perhaps you and I both need to attend some sensativity training so we can get our points across without being overly brash :)
I am a 17 year IT veteran Andy I am very familiar with SVN and have installed more Windows based servers in the last 10 years than most people could comprehend. I am familiar with the security ramifications and managing projects. The issue I had was liability with GG. I was not aware that GG accepted a post in a secure forum as some kind of license validation for ownership on some third party site. If they have agreed to that that is fantastic. It certainly makes the posability of a third party kit less risky. I see a huge potential for abuse of that method but that is GGs risk not mine. Have they actually agreed to this disclosure of license somewhere?
As to not owning the rights to the MMOWorkshop kit, well you are correct, the community does not own the rights to it, the MMOWorkshop is the IP of Prairie games but.. The license for the kit is 100% clear that it is useable in any form for profit or for educational purposes in any situation, no holds barred, as long as you maintain the GG and AFX EULAs. I have had 2 lawyers look at it for me because I didnt want to touch the MMOKit with a 10 foot pole initially with all the stuff going on right now over there. The license for the 1.5.2 alpha code is 100% clear and free to use. The c++ extensions are here on the GG site. It took one person at the workshop site 12 hours to migrate from 1.5.2 to a more stable basecode than the latest release of the kit has.
PG may not approve of a fork or may not like the idea of one but it is 100% legal. Talent Raspels MMOKit is an MMOWorkshop fork..
I am not saying the Workshop kit is -the- definative be all end all of MMOKIts but the backend is simply -the- most robust and easily workable system that exists today and I would be hard pressed to come up with something better in less than 2 years.
So I'll come right out and say it. I am very intrested in a fork of the MMOWorkshop from 1.5.2. My whole thought process for the last 4 weeks has been to either get PG back on board with the MMOWorkshop or find a new home for it. I was hoping we could bring the kit to GG so that we wouldnt run into the same issues all other external MMOKits have had. I came to the conclusion that as long as GG held the C++ extensions the kit would remain viable for the duration of the game engine and thats why I proceeded on my line of querries at GG.
I think it's a gross shame to lose the current build of the MMOKit but I dont see that situation resolving itself anytime soon and I'm not intrested in someone holding a gun to my head over wether or not they will release C++ extensions everytime there is a code patch.
I'll maybe send GG another email regarding SVN/C++ licensing confirmations and see how they would like to see this proceed. Personally I still like the idea of GG sanctioning a C++ extension forum for an MMOKit. That take all of the licensing onus off the kit developers and centralizes development to GG. Just my 2 bits though.
09/11/2008 (4:15 am)
@Pierre: NeL has always been open source. I actually worked on it (for like a week) with the Ryzom team but the ego problems on that team were not condusive to a productive development environment and I left. (Im sure it didnt help that I didnt speak french :) )The NeL engine has some plusses and minuses but IMO it wasnt even capable of holding a candle to Torque. (Even just plain jane TGE beats it out) I would be hard pressed to recall the specifics of the problems we were having but one thing I can tell you right now.. NeL has zero community support. If you develop in NeL you are basically on your own. The only people that seem knowledgeable with it (This was back a couple years ago at least) dont speak english and were extremely difficult to communicate with (Even when you make an exceptional effort to do so). At the time I worked with it NeL used 3DSMax exlusively for modelling. Perhaps they have re-written their mesh/ rendering layers I dont know.
There is also a slight bit of confusion as to who owns the NeL technology. Ryzom has been bought and sold at least twice since release. The basecode for NeL is supposed to be opensource. (Although I am not sure what flavour of open source) ryzom as a game failed miseably. Wether that was due to technical deificiencies or design ignorance I am not sure. For the life of me I cant even recall the playing the game although I did twice :) From what I do rememebr it annoyed me so badly in the first 5 minutes each time I played it that I swore I would never play it again.
Still, it's an alternative. if people want an MMO engine to compare to Nel is that.. Dont kid yourself though. NeL is no MMOKit. Not by a long bloody shot :) It's all raw source. You need a hell of a lot of cahones and some very significant programming knowledge to even get the engine to fireup. And as of the last time I Was involved with NeL it only ran on Linux based systems. Not a bad thing in and of itself but I gave up trying to dev on linux a long time ago. Not because it's not a better O/S than windows (Because it is by a power of 10 or more) but supporting *nix in a production enviro is just not something I am personally cpable of. And overall support for *nix is harder to find and get even in my hometown of over a million people. (And Im in the IT Business go figure).
If NeL is matured since my forray into it feel free to rebutt my points of contention :)
@Andy: Im sorry if I misunderstood you Andy but perhaps you and I both need to attend some sensativity training so we can get our points across without being overly brash :)
I am a 17 year IT veteran Andy I am very familiar with SVN and have installed more Windows based servers in the last 10 years than most people could comprehend. I am familiar with the security ramifications and managing projects. The issue I had was liability with GG. I was not aware that GG accepted a post in a secure forum as some kind of license validation for ownership on some third party site. If they have agreed to that that is fantastic. It certainly makes the posability of a third party kit less risky. I see a huge potential for abuse of that method but that is GGs risk not mine. Have they actually agreed to this disclosure of license somewhere?
As to not owning the rights to the MMOWorkshop kit, well you are correct, the community does not own the rights to it, the MMOWorkshop is the IP of Prairie games but.. The license for the kit is 100% clear that it is useable in any form for profit or for educational purposes in any situation, no holds barred, as long as you maintain the GG and AFX EULAs. I have had 2 lawyers look at it for me because I didnt want to touch the MMOKit with a 10 foot pole initially with all the stuff going on right now over there. The license for the 1.5.2 alpha code is 100% clear and free to use. The c++ extensions are here on the GG site. It took one person at the workshop site 12 hours to migrate from 1.5.2 to a more stable basecode than the latest release of the kit has.
PG may not approve of a fork or may not like the idea of one but it is 100% legal. Talent Raspels MMOKit is an MMOWorkshop fork..
I am not saying the Workshop kit is -the- definative be all end all of MMOKIts but the backend is simply -the- most robust and easily workable system that exists today and I would be hard pressed to come up with something better in less than 2 years.
So I'll come right out and say it. I am very intrested in a fork of the MMOWorkshop from 1.5.2. My whole thought process for the last 4 weeks has been to either get PG back on board with the MMOWorkshop or find a new home for it. I was hoping we could bring the kit to GG so that we wouldnt run into the same issues all other external MMOKits have had. I came to the conclusion that as long as GG held the C++ extensions the kit would remain viable for the duration of the game engine and thats why I proceeded on my line of querries at GG.
I think it's a gross shame to lose the current build of the MMOKit but I dont see that situation resolving itself anytime soon and I'm not intrested in someone holding a gun to my head over wether or not they will release C++ extensions everytime there is a code patch.
I'll maybe send GG another email regarding SVN/C++ licensing confirmations and see how they would like to see this proceed. Personally I still like the idea of GG sanctioning a C++ extension forum for an MMOKit. That take all of the licensing onus off the kit developers and centralizes development to GG. Just my 2 bits though.
#98
I had seen another topic about basically the same thing and made my comments
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=80077
There are about 4 messages from me (not realizing this post was in place, they deal with the more esoteric issues of HOW to do all this not, if or why or when.
They aren't answers they are suggestions/thoughts etc, which by the way some of you answered here Brilliantly.
The topics I posted were more of a "lets get this person do do this" then followers can do that type format.
Read those and come back...... (did you read them that was awful fast!)
Lets play the Garage Games 3rd Party Developed Ultra MMO Kit FAQ Game now.
Q: Where do we keep all our work and how do we develope it!!
A: I have a domain name and server, I would willingly donate the entire thing (minus my homepage setup, and access to my own homepage where people who know and love me come to say hi) and give the user/pass to a GG Employee/Admin in order to Secure it for ALL of us in Good Faith.
We will set up a Group approved leader ship and they will moderate the server for us, and the GG person will just be asked if anything to make a backup once a week...month year etc as THEY are willing too (What does GG get to make that worth while? Coming to that.)
If in my ignorance the isp restricts such a thing ( I do not believe they do ) I will find an alternate storage and use location fo rus.
After the 2 years when my site license is up? I renew it or the community that has used it for 2 YEARS can pitch in some funds and help keep it going :)
Q: Who will be in charge, I don't want to work for you YOU JERK!
A: Face it the boss is always a jerk, and when they are great people well....(does that happen?)
Yes it does. There are some truly awesome and knowledgeable people here.
Knowledge doesn't make leadership and leadership doesn't HAVE to have skills in a specific area IF they are good leaders and have the vision needed to complete our task.
Q: is this RPG or Sciency
A: What we have asked for is a MMO Kit, thats Massive Multi Player Online.
As stated above, that usually means, players, items, encounters, dialogue.
This could be the happy flower gathering and style modelling super fun Island MMO.
You wouldn't need monsters or aliens ya know? BUT you WOULD be able to use
player characters, items, and dialogue.
The idea is to make the player models, the monster or alien models the models PERIOD interchangeable or expandable enough to become a Foundation for that persons Dream, Our dream is to Augment the Torque Foundation with this MMO Kit, to make that a reality, Not to build our own dreams.
We are NOT here to build our MMO, we are here to Make MMO building more accesible by creating a Kit of sorts, (in the process of making a Kit it is highly likely that 1 or more MMO bases will come together, these can be released with the Kit as models/demos/examples or bases for others to use)
Q: Who will gain most from this kit?
A: http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=80077 if we do it in this fashion, everyone from newbie on up.
If we were to avoid rank newbies, and just do this on a professional level keeping only people of skill levels that already meet our needs, we may get done faster, but then who would use our Kit, its in our best interested to moderate forums and teach others to be involved.
Q: Will we sell the kit?
A: That is one option, we will be putting much work into it.
Another option, is to let people INTO the "project" and allow them to take it to another level, as they learn the project Grows.
Q: When do we start?
A: ummm How old is the oldest Dreamer here, this was in truth started years ago, we are just looking for more "reward" for our risk, can it be done, will it be done, and how much do "I" have to do to make it happen.
Someone post a html page that lets people put in their "Requirement list" for an MMO, and a voting booth for leadership styles, member limits, contribution requirements etc,
If needed I will do this but my web skills are still growing, if you need a place to Post the html too e-mail it to me and I will put it on my Page for all to go too and vote.
GG will take alot more interest and provide alot more too us when we PROVE we can do something.
Q: How much something?
A: If we show them a strong group of 50 to 100 active members, I am sure we will shake a few trees.
Q: Are you really as Wonderful as you Sound
A: Yes I am and humble too.
Ok, I am going off too finish my homework now.
I wanna see posts, Please understand I know some of this is covered, I know some of its "incomplete"
What I am doing right now is saying I will plant a seed, but it WILL NOT grow unless you will water it.
I will follow someone elses project even if they are willing to respect the community. But I know we are already able to do this and I know it can start today.
Chad.
11/14/2008 (9:49 am)
From the Heart to the Mind (What??!!)I had seen another topic about basically the same thing and made my comments
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=80077
There are about 4 messages from me (not realizing this post was in place, they deal with the more esoteric issues of HOW to do all this not, if or why or when.
They aren't answers they are suggestions/thoughts etc, which by the way some of you answered here Brilliantly.
The topics I posted were more of a "lets get this person do do this" then followers can do that type format.
Read those and come back...... (did you read them that was awful fast!)
Lets play the Garage Games 3rd Party Developed Ultra MMO Kit FAQ Game now.
Q: Where do we keep all our work and how do we develope it!!
A: I have a domain name and server, I would willingly donate the entire thing (minus my homepage setup, and access to my own homepage where people who know and love me come to say hi) and give the user/pass to a GG Employee/Admin in order to Secure it for ALL of us in Good Faith.
We will set up a Group approved leader ship and they will moderate the server for us, and the GG person will just be asked if anything to make a backup once a week...month year etc as THEY are willing too (What does GG get to make that worth while? Coming to that.)
If in my ignorance the isp restricts such a thing ( I do not believe they do ) I will find an alternate storage and use location fo rus.
After the 2 years when my site license is up? I renew it or the community that has used it for 2 YEARS can pitch in some funds and help keep it going :)
Q: Who will be in charge, I don't want to work for you YOU JERK!
A: Face it the boss is always a jerk, and when they are great people well....(does that happen?)
Yes it does. There are some truly awesome and knowledgeable people here.
Knowledge doesn't make leadership and leadership doesn't HAVE to have skills in a specific area IF they are good leaders and have the vision needed to complete our task.
Q: is this RPG or Sciency
A: What we have asked for is a MMO Kit, thats Massive Multi Player Online.
As stated above, that usually means, players, items, encounters, dialogue.
This could be the happy flower gathering and style modelling super fun Island MMO.
You wouldn't need monsters or aliens ya know? BUT you WOULD be able to use
player characters, items, and dialogue.
The idea is to make the player models, the monster or alien models the models PERIOD interchangeable or expandable enough to become a Foundation for that persons Dream, Our dream is to Augment the Torque Foundation with this MMO Kit, to make that a reality, Not to build our own dreams.
We are NOT here to build our MMO, we are here to Make MMO building more accesible by creating a Kit of sorts, (in the process of making a Kit it is highly likely that 1 or more MMO bases will come together, these can be released with the Kit as models/demos/examples or bases for others to use)
Q: Who will gain most from this kit?
A: http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=80077 if we do it in this fashion, everyone from newbie on up.
If we were to avoid rank newbies, and just do this on a professional level keeping only people of skill levels that already meet our needs, we may get done faster, but then who would use our Kit, its in our best interested to moderate forums and teach others to be involved.
Q: Will we sell the kit?
A: That is one option, we will be putting much work into it.
Another option, is to let people INTO the "project" and allow them to take it to another level, as they learn the project Grows.
Q: When do we start?
A: ummm How old is the oldest Dreamer here, this was in truth started years ago, we are just looking for more "reward" for our risk, can it be done, will it be done, and how much do "I" have to do to make it happen.
Someone post a html page that lets people put in their "Requirement list" for an MMO, and a voting booth for leadership styles, member limits, contribution requirements etc,
If needed I will do this but my web skills are still growing, if you need a place to Post the html too e-mail it to me and I will put it on my Page for all to go too and vote.
GG will take alot more interest and provide alot more too us when we PROVE we can do something.
Q: How much something?
A: If we show them a strong group of 50 to 100 active members, I am sure we will shake a few trees.
Q: Are you really as Wonderful as you Sound
A: Yes I am and humble too.
Ok, I am going off too finish my homework now.
I wanna see posts, Please understand I know some of this is covered, I know some of its "incomplete"
What I am doing right now is saying I will plant a seed, but it WILL NOT grow unless you will water it.
I will follow someone elses project even if they are willing to respect the community. But I know we are already able to do this and I know it can start today.
Chad.
#99
If you have a list of requirements, as built upon torque, or TGEA as I think many are thinking here, or a duo platform supportable kit.
E-mail me, thoughts ideas, suggestions etc, I will keep your original content so if "credit is important" you can be noted as the first who mentioned it, but remember first mentioned wasn't first thought, this is our time for development not Ego.
I will compile all the ideas, and post them on my page, then you Techies can say what is realistic to Start on or use current Free Resources in the TGE/A world to build upon, within a starter time frame.
We will then do just what they recommend, by any means neccessary to show we can get it done.
Even if it were a simple compilation of 10 free addons, and internal scripting to set up a terrain/town in a faster fashion using those addons.
If that were to prove technically unfeasable we would know so and set a different target daily till we found a realistic target that could be completed in a (What 1 month time frame?)
From there we prove ourselves able, and GG gives us notice, and we improve from there, into allowing newcomers to add content freely to an Assets folder, that we use to imrpove the base content of the package, and work with, while the Real solid Techies improve scripting and internal basics, such as networking abstraction, and player creation, dialogue displays etc.
This is only a hard outline, it can, must and will be improved.
I am willing to sacrifice MUCH of my personal time to help organize the "Secretarial" aspect of incoming data and keep track of Individual concerns, a newbie comes and says "why can't I do this" I will gladly help answer those questions and help find them things to do, if you read my post on how the community can develope as a whole, you will find that I have put a suggested structure in place, that allows us to make a Kit
AND
to use anyone who has TGE/A to get involved, and work in a teacher/apprentice stlye.
So, please comments on these posts, and I will make the page happen.
Chad
11/14/2008 (10:01 am)
And just in case :) you think I am kiddingIf you have a list of requirements, as built upon torque, or TGEA as I think many are thinking here, or a duo platform supportable kit.
E-mail me, thoughts ideas, suggestions etc, I will keep your original content so if "credit is important" you can be noted as the first who mentioned it, but remember first mentioned wasn't first thought, this is our time for development not Ego.
I will compile all the ideas, and post them on my page, then you Techies can say what is realistic to Start on or use current Free Resources in the TGE/A world to build upon, within a starter time frame.
We will then do just what they recommend, by any means neccessary to show we can get it done.
Even if it were a simple compilation of 10 free addons, and internal scripting to set up a terrain/town in a faster fashion using those addons.
If that were to prove technically unfeasable we would know so and set a different target daily till we found a realistic target that could be completed in a (What 1 month time frame?)
From there we prove ourselves able, and GG gives us notice, and we improve from there, into allowing newcomers to add content freely to an Assets folder, that we use to imrpove the base content of the package, and work with, while the Real solid Techies improve scripting and internal basics, such as networking abstraction, and player creation, dialogue displays etc.
This is only a hard outline, it can, must and will be improved.
I am willing to sacrifice MUCH of my personal time to help organize the "Secretarial" aspect of incoming data and keep track of Individual concerns, a newbie comes and says "why can't I do this" I will gladly help answer those questions and help find them things to do, if you read my post on how the community can develope as a whole, you will find that I have put a suggested structure in place, that allows us to make a Kit
AND
to use anyone who has TGE/A to get involved, and work in a teacher/apprentice stlye.
So, please comments on these posts, and I will make the page happen.
Chad
#100
For servers and hosting a project there really isn't a shortage of people - think you're the third or fourth person in this thread to offer, there are also sites like Assembla who will freely host SVN, TRAC etc features for a team to use.
In both the threads you've posted in about this you have shown some great ideas on how the team could function and work together, but that's not the stumbling block here as you can see we had thoughts on a process, offers of hosting and GG offering to lend support to review our idea once the team had put something together..... these threads more often than not die as this one did when people are asked to take the step from talking to actually doing something!
Have a think about your ideas which are great btw, and turn them into how do you get people to volunteer their time in the first place... if you can solve that one we're in business. I've seen many of these sorts of threads over my time at GG (as you'll see both Matt Fairfax and myself comment on above) - ideasranging from MMO's, rewriting the terrain engine, AI and all sorts of ideas for the community to get on and do something themselves and very few actually get anywhere.
11/15/2008 (11:12 am)
Chad - you have quite some enthusiasm there its great to see.For servers and hosting a project there really isn't a shortage of people - think you're the third or fourth person in this thread to offer, there are also sites like Assembla who will freely host SVN, TRAC etc features for a team to use.
In both the threads you've posted in about this you have shown some great ideas on how the team could function and work together, but that's not the stumbling block here as you can see we had thoughts on a process, offers of hosting and GG offering to lend support to review our idea once the team had put something together..... these threads more often than not die as this one did when people are asked to take the step from talking to actually doing something!
Have a think about your ideas which are great btw, and turn them into how do you get people to volunteer their time in the first place... if you can solve that one we're in business. I've seen many of these sorts of threads over my time at GG (as you'll see both Matt Fairfax and myself comment on above) - ideasranging from MMO's, rewriting the terrain engine, AI and all sorts of ideas for the community to get on and do something themselves and very few actually get anywhere.
Torque 3D Owner Edward
A clear chain of command needs to be addressed and a clear list of what we want in a torque community mmokit. If its just going to be a rehash of kits we already have. Then why bother. I think we need to approach this from a community stand point rather then from what 1 person wants. If a team of folks want to approach it as a group, then that group needs to get together and make the proposal.
i would put my hat in to offer some level design work. But I think that andy mentioned some good points.
Define
- Team Building - get together a group to start in depth discussions on features, design, etc.
- Ideas & Fact Finding - What actually would the kit include? what would help? how might we approach?
- Scope Definition - what's the goal of this project? what do we need to know?
- Solution outline
- Project Proposal to discuss and gain feedback on from GG if possible.
Design
Document
- feature list
- Approach
- Possible technologies
- Standards (documentation, SVN/CVS, Forums, hosting, etc).
- Open a dialogue with GG to discuss, get their opinions, thoughts on technologies, features, etc.
Develop
- Coding
- Testing
- Review solution with GG - quality, features, etc.
Deliver
- Documentation
- Support
- Get product approved and released with GG
- Release - YAY
And we need to define how its going to be different from any other kit that exists. If we are going to make another python kit, then why not just fix the other one. Or are people sore becuase they cant get the rights for that kit, and want to create a parallel kit to prevent the events that occured previously that has now occured with all mmokits that have been released publically that includes the DGI kit and PG kit.